The Enneagram, Polyvagal Theory, and IFS

How does the Enneagram intersect with our neurobiology? Why is it just as important to know your lowest number on the Enneagram as your highest?

The answers might surprise you. (I was blown away!)

Those of you who have been following the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast for a while know that I love talking about intersections. One of my favorite intersections is spirituality, neuroscience, and psychology. That’s a big part of what we do here - offering tools from Contemplative traditions paired with those from the latest research in how our bodies and brains were designed. Together, they give us a delightfully clear path to wholeness and divine union.

Well, today you’re in for a special treat. I will be speaking with Dr. Jerome Lubbe, who shares our love for intersections. He’s a functional neurologist who has written a fascinating book called the Brain Based Enneagram, and frequently weaves together spirituality, psychology, and his decades of research in neurology.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:29

Kelly Deutsch

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Deutsch, and today we have joining us Doctor Jerome Love. And those of you who have been following the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast for a while, know that I love talking about intersections. They just reveal the wholeness of things like the interconnectedness points to this underlying wholeness. And one of my favorite intersections is spirituality, neuroscience and psychology.

00:00:31:03 - 00:01:12:19

Kelly Deutsch

And that's a big part of what we do here is offering tools from the contemplative tradition, paired with those from latest research and science and neurobiology, and how our brains and bodies are designed. And together they give this delightfully clear path forward on the path to wholeness, healing, and even divine union. So today, you're in for a special treat, because Doctor Jerome shares our love for intersections and he is a functional neurobiologist or excuse me, neurologist, who has written a really great book called The Brain based Enneagram, and he frequently weaves together these streams of spirituality, psychology, and his decades of research and experience in neurology and working with the brain and body.

00:01:12:20 - 00:01:16:25

Kelly Deutsch

So, Doctor Jerome, we are thrilled to have you. Welcome to the podcast.

00:01:17:02 - 00:01:21:28

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to be with you again. It's always a gift. I appreciate it.

00:01:22:00 - 00:01:37:16

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, absolutely. So to begin today, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background and how did you get interested in these streams kind of weaving together like the Enneagram? Neuroscience. How did all this come together for you?

00:01:37:27 - 00:02:05:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

you know, it's it's a it's an interesting thing of how it happened. Most of it has been pretty unsolicited. It's just kind of being a passenger to some of the crazy things that have happened in life and trying to make sense of it. I think in all of this, the streams, whether it be psychology, it, the neurology of spirituality and the clinical care, be self-development and all enneagram, all of these things were, bumping up against spaces that I didn't solicit.

00:02:05:02 - 00:02:33:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But then also when I was there, I didn't understand or, I ended up hitting some walls in terms of the answers that were being provided in those spaces. So, for instance, I'm an immigrant kid from Congo, born in South Africa to Zimbabwe and parents. So I moved to the States as a refugee kid in the early 90s to Tennessee, unsolicited, passenger and ended up getting run over by a car a year after we were in the States.

00:02:33:16 - 00:02:58:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I, I had, an unfortunate situation where I drove a bike out into the middle of the road, got run over, and had some really, significant complications throughout life, from a couple of concussions to high school to being hit by two different drunk drivers. at 17, 20. And what ended up happening is that I became a patient with complex brain injury and neurological issues.

00:02:58:20 - 00:03:28:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I went to 21 specialists over nine years, in the beginning of my marriage, for $100,000, only to get a diagnosis that no one knew what to do with. So as a patient, I kept coming up against. Well, we're not sure what to do with that. And as an immigrant kid, going to 11 different schools before I graduated high school, constantly being in environments that were changing and, dealing with a significant amount of bullying, having an identical twin brother who was 85 pounds lighter than me when I graduated high school.

00:03:28:18 - 00:03:51:23

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So understanding the concept of body dysmorphia and body image, mental health when you have a reminder of what you could look like if you were 85 pounds lighter, so my world around kind of navigating what am I doing with my experience as a patient, as a person in terms of psychology, led me into these spaces where, you know, the only reason I became a doctor was because I couldn't find a good one.

00:03:52:06 - 00:04:13:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I my undergrad is in digital animation, a film studio full time with my brothers, and I fit the mold of a traditional provider. but as I started out as a patient, that's why my my website, I'm known as the patient doctor or a personal trainer for the brain is because all of the answers that I've been seeking out started out as a quest for my own understanding.

00:04:13:13 - 00:04:30:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right? My own experience as a patient and the midst of all of this, you know, unsolicited. I was raised in a charismatic Pentecostal world, where it wasn't really a good service until somebody started doing laps. moved and all the gifts to the spirit. And I started asking questions like, does it count if you get push?

00:04:30:28 - 00:04:51:15

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I don't know if that's the same thing when it's the Pentecostal experience of being slain in the spirit. And, asking all these questions as a teenager and not getting the answers, especially when you, are sold, a very performative version of Christianity. And then you bury your dad at 14 as a freshman in high school, and the prayers didn't fix it.

00:04:51:18 - 00:05:18:00

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then you're working through 80 to 100 migraines per calendar year and over 200 headaches per calendar year. And the president fix it. You know, I've been anointed in enough oil to be the cat. I didn't get rid of my migraines or keep my dad from dying. And for me, it wasn't a case of walking away from the idea of health being an option, or walking away from spirituality as an option, or walking away from the Enneagram as a good resource when I found out about it.

00:05:18:00 - 00:05:41:11

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But it felt insufficient. it was moving into these places of going, you know, I'm a patient. I became a doctor. I'm a patient who specifically has complex neurological issues. So I created a clinic that specializes in complex neurological issues. I see the lens through functional neurology, and I'm still somebody who is wholly committed to this idea of spiritual health at the same time as physical, mental and emotional health.

00:05:41:13 - 00:06:04:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then I discovered this thing called the Enneagram, which feels like it has really great intersections for relationships amongst all of those areas. But it feels a bit to reductive, especially knowing how the brain works now as a patient and a provider. So one of the happening is when you look at the clinical side of things, the spiritual side of things, the psychological side of things, and then the enigmatic side of things.

00:06:04:11 - 00:06:28:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

As a person, I just kept going. I think all of these things are the same language, but different dialects. Could I create, a modality or a methodology or process that helps to intersect these things? And I ended up creating the brain based model of the Enneagram and a whole identity methodology, which helps you to see how all of the types and all the aspects of the Enneagram are actually just correlations with brain, real estate and brain function.

00:06:28:20 - 00:06:45:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And it's been a journey of just trying to answer those questions for myself and those areas as a patient, a partner, a parent, a provider, all of those different things. And just trying to get a little bit closer to, a healthier version of myself in the process.

00:06:46:05 - 00:07:24:12

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Thank you. It's remarkable to me how many of us, especially in helping professions, are, often spurred by our own questioning. I mean, I'm sure it's true for other professions as well, but I find, you know, whether it's in ministry or therapy or, you know, teaching all sorts of, you know, spiritual and kind of social emotional work, oftentimes it's because where we're first and asking questions for ourselves and yes, I remember growing up that used to when I, some of parent of a friend, you know, was like, oh, all those therapists are just messed up looking to heal themselves, you know?

00:07:24:12 - 00:07:49:27

Kelly Deutsch

And it's she saw it as a bad thing, but more the more that I've been doing inner work and such, I'm like, I don't really trust a provider who hasn't done their own inner work if they haven't struggled with similar things and, had to use the tools for themselves in a very real and needed way. Yeah. So I think it makes it all the more potent, because they know exactly what you're going through and how to apply things.

00:07:50:00 - 00:08:09:06

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah, 100%. You know, I definitely fit the mold of the wounded healer, kind of stewardship position. Heal myself, replenish and heal myself. But, yeah, I also think you don't want to trust a cook that doesn't understand what it's like to be hungry, right? You want to. You want to be healthy. This person understands what I need because they also understand hunger, right?

00:08:09:06 - 00:08:35:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's so it's so incredible. And it never gets old and it never stops being profound. How many times, and how powerful it is for patients to say you're the first provider that listened. And I'm going. It's not actually a very difficult thing to listen to a patient, but it is so uncommon. Right. And I think that's true of of many healing spaces or supportive spaces and in any therapeutic modality.

00:08:35:18 - 00:08:43:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. It's finding somebody who's not only capable but willing to listen. That's not so common, unfortunately.

00:08:43:23 - 00:08:49:00

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah, it's very true. I think a lot of us just haven't had it modeled for us and so we don't.

00:08:49:03 - 00:08:50:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. Exactly right.

00:08:50:24 - 00:09:20:10

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I want to spend some time talking about, how neurology and all your experience kind of clinically overlaps with the Enneagram, because I think that's something that's very novel for people. many of our listeners I know have heard of the Enneagram, maybe have done their own work, maybe, you know, know their number or their type. but I'm curious how those intersect for you and what what relevance that has to us in our daily lives.

00:09:20:19 - 00:09:34:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

it's a great question. I'm actually. Yeah, I think it's going to take me about 50 years to properly unpack it through a curriculum that I've been working on. but I tell people, you know, I'll give you the layman's terms for some of the things that I'm working through with the curriculum and then start at the beginning.

00:09:34:22 - 00:10:10:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But, and there's a five year process that I'm working on that will take somebody from understanding themselves to then taking care of themselves, to then taking care of others, then training others to take care of others because they have taken care of themselves and understand themselves. And then lastly, what it looks like to treat others. But the knowledge and so I think you can walk through being a novice that has no experience with the Enneagram or functional neurology or the, the, methodology and the process that I use called functional psycho somatics, which is the intersection between the brain and the body and how that's a two way street.

00:10:10:01 - 00:10:30:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And we can functionally use that. but realistically, I think, you know, the application of this from, clinical standpoint, it's actually really straightforward. If we understand how the Enneagram correlates with brain function and how that brain structure and function, it's like playing an instrument. You know, I don't know how to play the violin, but I could learn, right?

00:10:30:23 - 00:11:01:19

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Because somebody else knows how the violin works. And the violin is a part of a section of the orchestra. And then there's the whole orchestra. Right. And so the brain and the enneagram and spirituality are just different synonyms for the orchestra of being human and playing in concert with each other. So, one of the ways you can look at that is that the Enneagram has these, these things called intelligence centers, which are known as head, heart and gut and synonymously, the head is the same thing as our mental health or our mind.

00:11:01:22 - 00:11:25:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's how we think, right? Our heart center is the same thing as saying our emotional health or how we process big feelings and emotions. Right? it's not the feeling in the body, it's the feeling in the heart space or the emotional real estate. it's the emotional intelligence. Right. and then you've got the gut center, which is correlated with our physical health or our body.

00:11:25:24 - 00:11:46:24

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So whenever anybody goes like, I don't understand the anagram, I don't understand neuroscience. I don't understand psychology. I say, do you understand that you have physical health based on your body? Then you have a mental health based on what's happening with your thought life and what you're thinking. And then you have emotional health or emotional intelligence in terms of if you understand your feelings and your emotions.

00:11:46:24 - 00:12:11:06

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Let's start there. And those three things thought, feeling and action or mental, emotional and physical health are something that are very common to everybody on the planet. When you know that clinical, you and I have somebody come in who is feeling with anxiety, it's a very different experience than somebody dealing with ADHD or depression or self-harm or panic attacks or fill in the blank crayon.

00:12:11:19 - 00:12:33:27

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

all of those things are there's either a body based primary diagnosis or a symptom or issue. There's a mental health conversation, or there's an emotional health conversation. And even now, novel ways of doing that is we've tended to lump mental and emotional health into the mental health category. and they're actually not the same thing. They coincide and they're correlated.

00:12:34:06 - 00:12:44:15

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

but knowing that that is like treating a left arm when it's a right arm issue, it's a part of the body, but it's in a different part of the brain. And knowing that difference can be profoundly supportive.

00:12:44:18 - 00:13:07:21

Kelly Deutsch

Yes, yes. And that's I have the more I've just immersed myself into, you know, neuroscience especially like poly vagal theory and trauma research and all of those things, and just recognizing how much more effective for especially trauma, the body based, the somatic approaches are far more effective than the cognitive like let's just address your thinking, you know, let it go.

00:13:07:21 - 00:13:25:04

Kelly Deutsch

And it's so, so different. But it's remarkable at how I mean, now I feel like it's catching on and trauma, you know, people are speaking about it everywhere. But I know a lot of my therapist friends, you know, even who those who are trained in the last decade were like, we didn't really get much of any of this in grad school.

00:13:25:04 - 00:13:26:24

Kelly Deutsch

Like, it just,

00:13:26:26 - 00:13:46:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

You know, it's so different. And thank you in advance for your patients. If you hear some background, I'm not wearing a close mike, and I'm in my clinic and there's a midwife today that's taken care of some families. And with three kids who are six and under, it's always, a good time and a joy next door. So you hear the background that's, celebrating babies on the way.

00:13:47:03 - 00:14:27:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

but, you know, to that point, this is where a lot of the work that I intersect in is very heavily tied into neuropsychology. Like, what does it look like to do family systems or internal family systems or ADP, which is advanced experiential dynamic psychotherapy. Those concepts and transparently, I'm not a licensed counselor, but I have licensed counselors that work with me and we co-manage and me being fluent in family systems, IFC, ADP, Poly Bagel Therapy I can clinically apply poly vagal therapy as a functional neurologist, but I'm not going to be the person who's sitting down as their clinical therapist from an LPC standpoint.

00:14:27:20 - 00:14:51:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

but why? It's really cool to be able to look at that is, for instance, telling somebody the basic stat of 95 to 97% of what happens to us on a daily basis is subconscious, it's unconscious, it's autopilot, right? And 3 to 5% reaches conscious level. It's not that we use 3 to 5% of our brain, it's that we're only aware of 3 to 5% of what happens during the day, consciously.

00:14:51:16 - 00:15:10:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And that makes sense if you look at it from the basis of a family unit or an organization, your executive team and your CEO is only present to so much of what's happening in the organization. I am a parent with three kids, and I am only present to what my three children are doing a certain number of hours, or even sometimes minutes during the day.

00:15:10:21 - 00:15:49:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But as a family unit and as an organization, we're still operational. It just doesn't mean that I am always conscious of what's happening in real time. The body's the same way. It's really normal for it to be on autopilot. That actually helps us to feel safer, right? So when I know somebody is coming in with a body based issue and they've done tons of great DBS or CBT, cognitive, behavioral or dialectical behavioral therapies, and they've done a ton of talk therapy, but nobody's gone, hey, did you know that your anxiety has actually been improved, has actually been, strengthened and exercised and has become so efficient in your system because for 40 years you've been

00:15:49:07 - 00:16:12:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

dealing with a sensory processing disorder, right? Every person that I've ever worked with that deals with high grade anxiety. It's also got a skewed relationship with touch. Most of them, almost 95% or more, are hypersensitive to touch people with anxiety or ticklish because they're anticipating something's going to happen. That's what anxiety is. So they anticipate touch, but helping them to understand you can't tickle yourself.

00:16:12:04 - 00:16:34:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So is that an issue with the input or is it a conversation around the experience and how can we adjust that a bit. So using sensory processing like somatic experiencing to navigate supporting somebody's body to digest and metabolize what's happening to them physically, and then all of a sudden they're like, Holy cow. So you told me the ten last ten years of therapy hasn't been for a lack of effort or lack of willpower or a lack of faith.

00:16:34:23 - 00:16:53:05

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's maybe that the people in the boardroom are not the issue, it's that there's an opportunity to help the employees way downstream, stop setting fire to the trash cans and realize, take a deep breath. We can help you process this through your body, and it'll actually decrease your level of anxiety better than anything else you've ever done in your life because you're ticklish.

00:16:53:05 - 00:17:20:17

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Let's start there. Right. So it's kind of concepts like that and applying that across the board to every type on the Enneagram, every intelligence center, every instinct, every subtype, you can literally take any piece of information that is Enneagram specific or any dramatic and translate that or offer a synonym to actual brain function, and then translate that to actual therapeutic intervention because they're all saying the same thing just for different words.

00:17:20:20 - 00:17:38:21

Kelly Deutsch

Could you, out of curiosity, go through the nine types in like 60s or less and name or either what they correlate to in the brain or even. I've also heard you talk about how, you know, on the extremes, each of these, you know, any Graham types could also be a diagnosis, you know.

00:17:38:29 - 00:17:39:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Absolutely.

00:17:39:22 - 00:17:41:20

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I'm curious if you want to go through and.

00:17:41:20 - 00:18:09:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah, and I'll tell you from a research standpoint, the nine levels of health that are explained in the Enneagram Institute actually do a pretty good job of if you look at the especially the level one and level two, they, they show a pretty strong pathology connection. if anybody wants to read more on that, but really high level in 60s, you can actually correlate, the gut center to body based symptomatology, the head center to mental health, like you mentioned, in the heart center to emotional health.

00:18:09:03 - 00:18:30:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And one of the things that I communicate to people is you can see it as a gas brake and cruise or throttle. The brain in all situations is dealing with a sympathetic response and a parasympathetic response, which is your autonomic nervous system. But that's three things. It's a gas pedal in your sympathetics. It's a brake pedal in your parasympathetic, and then it's a throttle between those two.

00:18:30:16 - 00:18:52:10

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So it's how your subconscious brainstem function works. It's on autonomic or automatic. Same thing. So in the gut center eight is a gas pedal nine as a brake pedal one is a throttle. In the heart center, two is a throttle, three is a gas pedal, four is a brake pedal, and the head five is a brake pedal, six is a throttle, and seven is a gas pedal.

00:18:52:13 - 00:19:11:23

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And if you know just that information, you can understand your relationship with whether or not you're withdrawing and your body's trying to shut things down, or whether or not you're engaging and your body's trying to amplify and pursuing, or if it's trying to find some degree of equilibrium and support you by throttling that and trying to find some degree of equity or balance, and you can do that.

00:19:11:23 - 00:19:31:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And one of the ways you can say that is correlate gas, brake and cruise. That gas is a plus cruise as an equal sign and then brake is a minus sign. So if you ask a relationship of how a body sensor number like eight can be so different than a body sensor, a number like nine. And so this eight has a gas pedal and nine is a brake pedal.

00:19:31:24 - 00:19:53:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Eight is pursuing something that's life giving and nine is withdrawing in order to mitigate pain. It's more fluent. And what a negative reinforcement looks like and eight is more fluid. And what a positive reinforcement looks like. That's when they dominate their environment differently. They're going to win the fight first. That's not what a nine does. And I withdraw this because it's trying to mitigate pain by avoiding conflict.

00:19:53:12 - 00:19:59:12

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Very different strategies. But you can understand all of that clinically just from a gas brake cruise kind of concept.

00:19:59:16 - 00:20:10:04

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah. So using that, kind of intelligence center, how does then a one compare. Like what is what is cruise or throttle look like in that analogy.

00:20:10:06 - 00:20:35:12

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. So in that way if you look at it, I also correlate these with what are called stances. When you do in stances, first time stances or even stances, harmonics is tons of triadic things in the Enneagram world, like train types and other things. but when you see the one in a body sensor as a throttle or a cruise control or an equals, what they're doing is trying to constantly find a balance and what they do.

00:20:35:19 - 00:20:56:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. I don't call it a duty or an obligation stance. I call it a support stance, because realistically, if they're on autopilot and they're unhealthy one, two and six, which are known as duty and obligation, they end up being boxed into this service oriented kind of workmanship. Right. Let's see. You got to come up with the plan and the six.

00:20:56:26 - 00:21:12:08

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

You got to take care of the person in the tube. And you got to respect and honor the process. And the one. But when what it really is, is if the heart but the core of that motivation they want to support, they want to be a support stance. They are a pivot. They're not trying to slam the gas pedal.

00:21:12:08 - 00:21:30:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

They're not trying to slam the brake pedal. They're trying to be a fulcrum, a linchpin, a support center, the piece in the middle of the seesaw, so to speak. So when you see it with a one, their desire to find balance is that they have to take into consideration the way that everything is done. They can't just check out and not do it.

00:21:30:26 - 00:21:53:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

They can't do it all themselves and not make sure that there's some degree of budget and audit. but, you know, sometimes the heartbeat of what a one gets to, to navigate is and it can be really helpful to do an audit, not an autopsy. Right. There's a difference, that when they reflect on something and they utter the, it's kind of like this is a statement for one that's kind of like naming.

00:21:53:06 - 00:22:16:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

You must not be named. It's like saying Voldemort that, for one, it's the statement of that's good enough, right? Saying that's good enough. It's vulgar. Right. It's unacceptable. so, you know, that's the idea of moving away from practice doesn't make perfect. And moving towards practice makes permanent. So what am I practicing? You know, this is a gift of one to do.

00:22:16:07 - 00:22:37:29

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Reformation. Reformation is synonymous with iteration and revision and course correction. But for one, the throttle is saying what is the appropriate amount of effort action only do what am I doing here? And am I doing too much, too little, or just right? And if they can figure out what just right is, it's going to change day by day, and that's okay.

00:22:38:08 - 00:22:56:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

but getting stuck in that space, that's the thing. If you withdraw, you can hide. If you hit the gas, you can run forward and run over something. So it's a lot easier for sometimes for somebody to run away or to run forward, run away or run towards. But when you're in a duty or a support stance or an obligation stance, you're kind of stuck between all of those spaces.

00:22:56:07 - 00:23:14:17

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So it's a thought on that health of the speed up or slow down, but sometimes you can accidentally drop in a neutral and then feel very, very stuck. And that's that's kind of work for one energy in terms of what they do for two, in terms of who they serve, and then for six in terms of how they plan and strategize moving forward because they're a forecasting number.

00:23:15:17 - 00:23:17:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. So very different energy.

00:23:17:09 - 00:23:33:02

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. So would you go through the other two centers as well. Because I know I mean I'm sure everybody has to like go back and rewind this and be like wait what did he say. Like well we're all the same. So how does how does the heart center work as you know, as the kind of plus minus equal as the guy?

00:23:33:02 - 00:23:34:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Well.

00:23:34:16 - 00:23:53:03

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Absolutely. It's one of those things that when you see the force or withdrawal stance, but that's a brake pedal, then what they can do is you're very good at withholding, right? Withholding meaning that what does it look like for them to withhold and also to check in with themselves. So there's a lot of synonyms here when you look at it for that much better of being able to withdraw but withdraw into themselves.

00:23:53:05 - 00:24:19:00

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So think of the difference. as somebody who withdraws into a cave and they're there by themselves. It's an internal isolated space versus somebody is out in the world adventuring and trying to conquer everything that they can't. Three is a conquering stance. It's the it's succeeding, achieving, charming, confident number. Right. It's a very gregarious number. And in this in the stance world it's called assertive.

00:24:19:03 - 00:24:34:17

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So a four is going to withdraw in whatever way is relative to them. And then a three is going to assert themselves. Right. So they're going to put their foot down, but they're generally going to put their foot down on the gas pedal. A four is going to put their foot down, but they're generally going to put it on the brake pedal.

00:24:34:19 - 00:24:49:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then the two is trying to find a balance between that. So if you think energetically when you get around people threes are trying to take over the world. Right. It's like in the brain, you know, come and take over the world. two is just trying to take care of everybody. They they're on both sides of the equation.

00:24:49:18 - 00:25:12:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So when they're that throttle, you know, that equals symbol. They're taking into consideration. Everybody matters sometimes for three, only the goal matters. And sometimes for a four. The only thing that they can connect to is about what matters to them and how that's relevant for their own experience. so it gives you a little bit of a connotation of the gas fee increase also applies to the break is internal and self.

00:25:12:09 - 00:25:30:28

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. The equals or throttle is focusing on others but within reach. And then when you're looking at a gas pedal it's focusing on everything else that's just out of reach. That's why you see seven, eight and three are all pursuit based. They they don't have it yet, but they want it right now. Right. So they're trying to ascertain it.

00:25:30:28 - 00:25:51:11

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

They're moving towards it sometimes aggressively but always assertively. so the two is that heart based space that's taking care of everyone. The three is taking care of the goal, and then the four is taking care of themselves and sometimes over focused on themselves. So it's a relative relationship. None of these things indicate health. They just indicate survival strategy and pace.

00:25:53:03 - 00:26:20:24

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. That's one thing that I love. And I kind of squeezed to myself when I heard you talk about, you know, the, the overlap between the Enneagram and IFS because that's something that I love as well simply to, I mean so for those of you who are unfamiliar with ISIS, we have another episode on that, but it essentially is talking about how there's a core, a self with a capital S, and then you have all of these parts that you develop over life, these parts of your personality, they you can call them sub personalities.

00:26:20:24 - 00:26:41:15

Kelly Deutsch

Ego states, you know, just aspects of you, whether it's, you know, your perfectionism or your people pleasing. And you have all of these parts who, you know, help you adapt, and survive in the world. But when you look at the Enneagram as nine parts, like nine universal types that we all have, kind of like archetypes if you want to get Jungian about it.

00:26:42:10 - 00:27:02:09

Kelly Deutsch

I feel like that. So, I don't know, it just changes how you look at the Enneagram. Instead of saying like, well, I'm a three or I'm a seven or I'm a six. Yeah. and you recognize like, no, we all have all nine parts and we just use them in different circumstances. And, you know, usually a few take the lead more than others.

00:27:02:12 - 00:27:22:15

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Absolutely. And that was one of the biggest things that actually led me to create kind of the model and line it. Why I ended up in that space was I got introduced to the Enneagram and this idea of typecasting and just being a single type and going, but, you know, one from a brain perspective, you can't you can't distill a person into a single number neurologically, one way too complex for that.

00:27:22:19 - 00:27:39:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

This is too much going on. And then spiritually, I was I come from a Judeo Christian background, and now I'm more interested in mysticism, alternative orthodoxy spaces. But the first question that came out to me, the very first day that I got exposed to the Enneagram was, well, if I'm made in the image of God, what number is God?

00:27:39:17 - 00:27:53:28

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then it's like, okay, well, God is clearly all nine numbers, and I'm not made in the image of an aspect of God. So that must mean that to some degree. I have all nine numbers in me. But how do I know that? How do I figure that out? And I started asking questions like, well, what's my lowest number and why does that matter?

00:27:53:28 - 00:28:14:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And everybody goes, that's not a question that we ask. And I go, well, if I understand trauma informed and trauma trained work, shadow work to cast a shadow that's still above ground. So your highest number has a shadow. But I'm talking about the stuff that's buried so deep that it hasn't seen the light of day for decades. That kind of shadow work that's different.

00:28:14:02 - 00:28:35:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's not the same thing as what's above ground. Getting light shone on into a different. Yeah. so, for instance, you know, when we connect the dots with, with the health center, most people think I'm very, very high in five because five is the researcher, the investigator, the observer. It is the neuroscience. It's been the engineer. But five is my lowest number by a lot.

00:28:35:03 - 00:28:59:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It is my out of all the types, everything that I look at it is my lowest number. And if you look at it in terms of the way that five engages in the world, it can't go to sleep unless it has more information and more data. My entire lived experience was birthed, lived, and moved through ambiguity, right? We moved to the country with $100, two suitcases, a bipolar grandmother and a parent.

00:28:59:29 - 00:29:17:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I went to 11 different schools before I graduated high school. My dad died at 14. You know, I was born in South Africa, immigrated on asylum status as a refugee kid from Congo. I'm a white guy named Jerome, and I have an identical twin brother. My dad spoke 13 languages. I spoke three when I came to the country.

00:29:17:24 - 00:29:41:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Like concrete clarity and understanding was not what I grew up with. Everything that I grew up with was complete, completely devoid. Now here's the thing people are very high and five. I can have the exact same experience as me and then produce five as a survival strategy. Sure, the difference is that that became for somebody who had a similar experience.

00:29:41:07 - 00:30:00:03

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I grew up with massive insecurity, instability or in ambiguity, specifically in a the the more they understood, the safer it felt. The only way that that becomes high is if you become fluent in that, and it becomes a successful survival strategy and you pursue it because it helps you to either mitigate pain really quickly and it minimizes negative reinforcers.

00:30:00:04 - 00:30:20:28

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

If I have if I have that answer that you want, even if I don't do what you ask, that's the difference between 5 and 1. Five gives the right answer, one gives the right action. It's very different. Right? So I grew up in spaces where my viable survival strategy wasn't having better answers. I didn't get a lot of clarity in that way.

00:30:21:00 - 00:30:39:04

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Somebody else grows up in that environment, and their answer actually helps them mitigate their pain or help them feel better. Now it becomes something that they reinforce because it helps them to stay alive. And it's very gratifying for me because it wasn't, as I said, it wasn't a successful strategy. And it also was a model for me. I didn't become fluent in five.

00:30:39:07 - 00:30:58:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So how does that show up? For me, it shows up that if I do a lot of work around research and a lot of work around data collection, it's exhausting. It's not where my stamina is. I have to be very careful. It's somebody sufficient in to an efficient and hard center. My two is my pilot and the airline is is heart based, right.

00:30:58:14 - 00:31:20:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's like southwest. It's all about love. And for me, knowing that when I have to go and do my taxes, it is brutally uncomfortable for me to sit in front of a spreadsheet or to have a conversation on finances or to do a budget right. I've been in private practice for six years. I had to hire people to help me do my PNL and my budget because I don't enjoy it.

00:31:20:19 - 00:31:43:12

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Knowing that and knowing that five is not a fluency for me allows me to get outside support and supplementation and really, really powerful ways. But if I don't know that about myself, then I keep wondering, why am I so interested in neuroscience and neuropsychology and all of these things? But five doesn't. Something is because the data is a means to an end.

00:31:43:12 - 00:32:06:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Every single thing that I'm gathering is so that I can then translate that to the effective care and outcome of a person. It's person focused, it's person consequence. Somebody is high and five. They don't need to share that with anybody else. They just needed for themself. It's their own understanding. And I gave up on my own understanding and getting the right answers a long time ago that nothing ever showed up for that.

00:32:06:24 - 00:32:34:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So now I have 14 that space to write. Not serving. Step five is your brake pedal, because it often goes into an interior headspace of trying to think through things and understand. Six is that throttle of trying to say, how do I effectively support everybody with good strategy and good planning? I can think ahead. Five is reflecting on the past, six is thinking about the future and going, man, if I have the right strategy and the right plan, everybody stays safe.

00:32:34:23 - 00:32:56:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And that's a really great thing for a strategic planner, right? Or somebody is good at forecasting. I want my financial advisor to be high in six and five, I can tell you that much. and then seven is a gas pedal, but is seven is the kinetic energy. Clinically you see it correlated with ADHD and every age, because it's just like, oh my God, look at how much the world entices me and excites me.

00:32:57:00 - 00:33:15:22

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

ADHD is not a negative thing until it runs roughshod over the rest of your life. But seven is the gas pedal, six is the throttle, and five is the brake pedal. In terms of our strategy for thinking, case in point, I'll give you a practical one, and then I'll take a deep breath, say the exact same sentence but with different tone, and see how it changes.

00:33:15:22 - 00:33:34:11

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. So I'm saying I have an idea, right? Five energy guys, I have an idea. I know how to make this work. And that's the engineer. I have an idea. Let's research that six is I have an idea on how we can effectively move through this. I know what we can do, and the energy starts to pick up a little bit.

00:33:34:14 - 00:33:56:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then seven energy guys, I got an idea. Ready. Right. I got an idea. Yeah. And depending on the way that you're wired, somebody's going. I know what you're thinking. I can see that. Or I know how to move forward in that. I've had a plan versus who cares about a plan? It's like the difference between five reading the contract, six signing the contract, and seven not caring about the contract.

00:33:56:13 - 00:34:24:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's a very different energy. Okay. So yeah, so a couple of examples of where gas rate increases. And if anybody picked up on that because I gave a lot the the brake pedal is associated with past tense. The gas pedal is actually associated with present tense. And there's a lot of things that, I think in any grand world we'll have some, some, good quality debates and dialog around, but then anything that as a throttle is future tense, it has to take into consideration how every decision they make will affect every other decision.

00:34:24:23 - 00:34:48:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

There's a forecast in the sense, so six, two and one are forecasters nine five and for are reflecting on the past and then seven eight and three one everything. Now, a lot of people think there are future tense because they're moving forward, but they actually are the cart before the horse. They're already there. They already if you talk to three, eight, seven, they're already in it.

00:34:48:18 - 00:35:05:24

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

They're moving forward because they want to procure it in the moment. They need it right now. so the seven, eight, three is actually a future tense. Some people say that it's I'm sorry, 73 are presents and some people fail with their future. but I think it's just they move so fast into the future that they make the future their present in real time.

00:35:05:27 - 00:35:07:00

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And that's a little bit different.

00:35:07:07 - 00:35:08:09

Kelly Deutsch

Interesting.

00:35:08:09 - 00:35:08:29

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah.

00:35:09:01 - 00:35:34:29

Kelly Deutsch

Would you say then when you are looking at people because I've heard you ask people's top Enneagram numbers, you don't ask like, what type are you? But you know, like what are your top three numbers exactly? To do? So you recommend people look more at like their childhood and their trajectory and like, here's what I naturally do, because I know that's been a question amongst, you know, people like, oh, you know, as a child, as a little more this, but, I'm a little more of that.

00:35:35:01 - 00:35:58:27

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But I think it's a great question because I actually, I actually I think it's a combination. It's number one answer. Right? It's number one approach. but one thing I will tell you that I adamantly agree with is answering a question from a previous age, understanding why that became an effective strategy and what your confirmation bias is. There's a difference between something informing you and something defining you, right?

00:35:58:27 - 00:36:17:10

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Your history informs you. It doesn't define you. It's different. so why I say that is an analogy that I'll use, and then I'll connect the dots for you. is when you're looking at a whole identity or you're looking at all the Enneagram types, it's like saying that there are pilots, copilots, flight attendants and passengers and everybody stop baggage, but everybody's on the same flight.

00:36:17:12 - 00:36:40:29

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Okay? When somebody is talking about the Enneagram as a type, the general talking about the pilot or their driver, that's fine. But that's the driver at the moment. You also have to understand from a brain perspective, drivers can change based on context. As an extrovert, I can be introverted. And oftentimes you need to be from a health. An introvert can be extroverted and oftentimes needs to be for their own stamina and health.

00:36:40:29 - 00:37:01:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right? So it's not a fixed thing. You are not an extrovert or an introvert. You are somebody who's predisposed to be more efficient and have a confirmation bias for that, right? So that being said, when somebody answers a question, I'll tell you how I do it clinically. That that there are a couple of different parts to it. there's four different factors.

00:37:01:24 - 00:37:22:10

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

and you can apply the same thing to doing Enneagram work because I believe all the traditions offer something really relevant, like diamond and S.A.T. and narrative tradition. They're all really good. But realistically, when you're doing something, if you're going to move somebody towards a healthier version of themselves, it's part case history, which is somebody's story. It's their narrative.

00:37:22:10 - 00:37:44:06

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's what they brought into the room. Then it's their diagnostics in real time. How are you showing up at the moments? Right. Imagine if I give somebody a clinical diagnosis on their lab values. But I didn't come lab values ten years ago. It's a terrible idea. Okay. Also, what if I give somebody a diagnosis off of one lab value when there's 50 results on that sheet?

00:37:44:08 - 00:38:05:06

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right? That's a bad idea, too. Yeah. The Enneagram tests like the ready getting off of the Enneagram Institute or Ivcc. I think those two from the Enneagram Institute are the most statistically reliable, especially when you look at the whole thing, not just a single time, because what happens if you tie in three numbers? Well, what if we start thinking, well, I've got to be one of those three.

00:38:05:06 - 00:38:24:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Two going. All three of those people are in the cockpit. They are my pilots. All three of them are influencing where I go and how I get there. All of them at the same time. The person who's got their hands on them on the lever that's actually flying a plane, well, that's going to depend on the context of whatever I'm motivated by or whatever I'm moving toward or away from or avoiding.

00:38:24:13 - 00:38:52:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right? So when I'm looking at case history, that's the narrative. That's the story that got me here, right? The diagnostic is an Enneagram test, like the ready or the evoke. And then what you need is a really good quality exam, right? The exam is going to be somebody whose content expertise is whatever it is that you're working through, that can be in any brand coach or spiritual director who understands the energy of someone who's fluent in the Enneagram from an exam standpoint, but you understand your own story better than anybody else.

00:38:52:20 - 00:39:13:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's what the narrative tradition teaches that I love. But let's also take that subjective side of things and add it with objective information, like the ready or the IB cue. And then let's do clinical interpretation. What is the interpretation of both of those sets of information, both subjective and object. And you take that exam and you take all of that really good quality interpretation.

00:39:13:18 - 00:39:42:23

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then you put it into interventions. There's actually five parts. Intervention means, hey, let's test our hypothesis. It's not a theory yet for anybody who's listening. A theory is something it's proven a hypothesis is something that's not right is two different things. That's why it's called quantum theory. And the theory of relativity, because we've been proven. so when I'm looking at it and going, well, I got this really great narrative in case history, we got this information from a diagnostic which isn't a diagnosis, it's just informing us.

00:39:42:26 - 00:40:02:10

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then I did this really great exam. That's some clinical interpretation of how you show up in all of these areas. What are we going to do in terms of moving forward that we can try to see if we implemented it makes a difference, right? It minimizes your pain. It improves the life giving encounters that you're pursuing. It creates a healthier environment for you in all of those areas.

00:40:02:12 - 00:40:26:24

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And then the last piece that's really important because I went from case history to diagnostics to exam and clinical intervention to or exam and clinical interpretation to intervention. The last piece is it's not a case of if, but when you're going to have to force correct, you're it's like going to a personal trainer. You can do the best planning on the planet, but when you go to lift that one particular piece of equipment and your knee buckles, you might need to adjust, right?

00:40:26:29 - 00:40:43:19

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So how do you course correct around that? How do you iterate around that? All of those things together give you the highest probability of getting an effective outcome. But to that point, one of the things that I recommend specifically because you're going to need somebody, you're going to need to understand your own story, to share your story. So that's one piece, right?

00:40:43:25 - 00:41:13:02

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's where ifs work is great. You're going to need to take the test. So when you're taking the test and even if you don't take the test, you can literally take the if somebody doesn't come in with diagnostics, I can still do a really great exam. It's an added benefit, not a requirement. Right. But if you take the test, one of the things that I recommend is when you take the test taken in real time, because it's what's happening in your brain that your brain is processing in that moment, because the brain actually only processes in present tense, it cannot process in any other time, senses all present.

00:41:13:05 - 00:41:33:17

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So even if I remember what happened when we found my dad actually passed away, I know I'm 38, but my brain processes in is 14, and so it actually connects with the relevance that that's a memory and not another experience, right? I'm remembering it and not re-experiencing it. So that being said, when you take the test, there's going to be three options that happen when you take the test.

00:41:33:19 - 00:41:53:25

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Either there's going to be two answers where one of them is so blatantly wrong, you're like, nope, that's not even close. Call obvious answer or one of them is going to be so blatantly accurate. You're like, yeah, that's definitely me. The other one's not even close. So it's either absolutely wrong, so the other one's an obvious and appropriate answer, or it's absolutely right.

00:41:54:00 - 00:42:12:11

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And you're like, I'm just going to go and pick that. Those are the easy ones, right? The hard ones are where both of them feel equally wrong or equally right. The accuracy is in question. And in those situations, what I recommend that you do, again, because we're talking about who you are now, and I'll connect it honest. Why it matters in a second.

00:42:12:13 - 00:42:41:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

When you get to two that feel equally right or equally wrong, think of the options as signposts and a fork in the road. And if somebody was trying to find you, which one would lead them to you or away from you the fastest, even if it's by one percentage point different, right? So for instance, if there's two answers on there and I go, you know what, if somebody was going to find me that particular answer would it would help them get to me just a few minutes faster.

00:42:41:29 - 00:43:17:06

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Go with that answer or I go, you know what that one feels like? It would lead somebody astray just a little bit quicker. That's not my answer. If you're trying to find the one that finds you faster in that moment or leads you away less quickly, right? So whichever one gets to you more effectively. So when you when you're at this point that you have the option for, try and understand this in terms of real time, why I tell all the other teachers and any grammar experts that I work with is we have to understand that from a neuroplasticity standpoint, from a brain standpoint, the brain can change dramatically in real time, right?

00:43:17:09 - 00:43:37:15

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Imagine if you've ever been profoundly triggered and you dysregulated, right? Or you get activated whole. The Hulk and Bruce Banner are the same person. They're just different in context. Right? So all of us have that capacity to Hulk out in different ways. But also one of the clear examples that I give people where they go, well, personality and type doesn't change, though, based on who you were in your 20s.

00:43:37:23 - 00:44:03:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I know one, your brain isn't fully developed from a hardware standpoint until your late 20s or early 30s, so it's not a good idea to do an understanding of who you are based on an immature brain. That's one. That's one. Pitfall two I work with a lot of patients that have that brain injury, and when you have a brain injury, the field of neuropsychology was started off of somebody who had massive personality changes following a head injury.

00:44:03:03 - 00:44:32:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

The name is Phineas Gage. He had an iron rod blow through his head and he became a completely different person. And why I mentioned that is if we understand that the brain can change from trauma, then we start to understand that the brain and the personality can change from physical, mental, emotional, sexual, relational or spiritual trauma. So if you have significant trauma in your life, what are called limbic attachments, which can be negative limbic attachments, or you have significant what's called positive states.

00:44:32:20 - 00:44:57:29

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So Olympic attachment is either a trauma and a negative experience or it's a positive state. Think of the movie rat and what happened for the food critic when he took the bite of food at the end of the movie, he took one bite of food and remember what it felt like physically to be loved. Right? That's powerful. So when you're in a situation where you go, my brain can completely rewire based on the profoundly positive or profoundly negative experience that I have.

00:44:58:01 - 00:45:19:12

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And I don't do that in real time based on everything in my life that isn't for me up to that point. I run the risk of not having as clear a snapshot or a picture in real time, taking into consideration of every good and every bad thing that has ever happened to me. That gives the whole spectrum. So I think that's just a couple of different ways to look at it.

00:45:19:15 - 00:45:37:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But like I'm saying right now, is sometimes that can be really helpful. If this feels overwhelming, then you go, maybe I need somebody to work with me through that. I don't like working out on my own. Maybe a personal trainer or a coach would be helpful. Or you hear this and you're like, I just got enough information for the next five years of workouts, and I'm a solo workout person.

00:45:37:16 - 00:45:54:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I don't have workout partners. I do this on my own. Cool. This just gave you a lot of stuff that you can work out on your own, but figuring out does it feel like you are the type of person who does it by yourself, with others, or with a professional? depending on what your experience was with what I just communicated.

00:45:54:18 - 00:45:58:05

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That will give you some insights. That's kind of the way that you approach that as well.

00:45:58:07 - 00:46:18:28

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, right. And even just again, in present context, you know, because I know there are different stages in life where it's, you know, I've worked with various professionals for a chapter, you know, where it's like, okay, you helped me up to a certain point and then, you know, I was either ready to do things on my own or it came to a point where it's like, okay, like this is we used your expertise and that was helpful.

00:46:18:28 - 00:46:20:13

Kelly Deutsch

And now it's time to move on.

00:46:20:15 - 00:46:41:17

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah, it's skill building and stamina building. You know, if we look at all of this, like physical exercise, if I'm not physically exercising on a regular basis, I may need somebody to support me in that. Or if I'm fit physically exercising and I'm doing it for weight loss, or I'm doing it for performance enhancement. As an athlete, the goals and the strategies are completely different.

00:46:41:20 - 00:47:09:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So understanding what your relationship with exercise is in the first place mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually will then get you to the well. What type of effort am I trying to put in here? What kind of growth or resistance training am I trying to do? Because for some of us, I can tell you for not for some of us, for all of us, I can tell you for sure that whatever your top numbers are, that is 100% about resistance training and fitness.

00:47:09:14 - 00:47:31:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

We already have a ton of power. I already have a ton of strength. In fact, our highest numbers will run roughshod over ourselves because we're on top of that. So resistance training is is important in whatever your highest numbers are. Strength and conditioning is what we're doing in our lowest numbers because they fatigue us quickly. Right? I have a lot of stamina and my primary type, that's my pilot.

00:47:31:16 - 00:47:48:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I can do that in my sleep. In fact, I do it in my sleep. I wake up in the middle of the night and I have to slow it down. So exercising restraint and what our default strategies are, it's actually a helpful economy. It's a good thing. And then developing some stamina and some strength in our lowest numbers.

00:47:48:21 - 00:48:03:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But if we don't know how to answer that, then there are things like diagnostics. There are things like Enneagram coaches. There are things like resources for what I've done. There's plenty of ways to do it. And and I think we can access that in a variety of ways.

00:48:03:03 - 00:48:24:26

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about why why those low numbers are important and why people might want stamina there. Because there's also, you know, the the school of thought that says, you know, like, let's look at, let's do a strengths based, you know, work up and focus on what you're already good at. Don't worry about, you know, those other things and you know, why are those lower numbers important.

00:48:24:27 - 00:48:44:19

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. Coming back to the to the airplane analogy, I don't want my lowest number flying the plane. I also don't want that lowest number running and wreaking havoc during the flight. Okay. I mean, we've seen this happen a lot over the last two years, but see what's happened when a plane has to get a plane has to get grounded because of a passenger.

00:48:44:21 - 00:49:17:05

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right? That's a that's a really, really significant and complicated thing. So your lowest first time, I mean, your lowest priority, lowest hierarchical number can absolutely bring the plane down. Right. Because your passenger what happens if you have a first time passenger that doesn't want to travel with the rest of your system and now you've got something internally that's going if you understand internal family systems, archetypes, family theory, all these other pieces, you're like, why do I keep having a panic attack?

00:49:17:05 - 00:49:35:25

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Every time that I get around somebody who raises their voice? And I've been doing a decade of work on type and a decade of work on myself. But when that time comes in and that volume comes in, my entire body goes through the roof and I have a panic attack. Well, it might be that you're allergic to eight energy.

00:49:35:25 - 00:50:08:29

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It might be that you're allergic to physical body based assertiveness. And because you don't have any stamina, not through any fault of your own, but either because it wasn't modeled for you or you haven't been able to exercise it in safe and appropriate ways. Your body keeps avoiding it to keep you safe, and then all of a sudden, you drop into a conversation with a board member, a team member or family member or yourself, and everything hits the fan because you feel like that person who's never flown before, where every time they fly, they think they're going to die and they're not.

00:50:09:02 - 00:50:36:25

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But that doesn't make it any less relevant, right? It's the knowing your highest number is helps you to more effectively fly the plane. Lying in love. Knowing your lowest numbers helps you to have a more effective experience with that person who doesn't often get into those experiences of being in that travel or transit, or whatever. The analogy may be, that helping your passengers, especially a first time passenger, is where you're in frequent fliers, not your frequent fliers.

00:50:36:27 - 00:50:56:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

To have a healthy and a safe encounter with that experience is also profoundly important. And oftentimes we don't know it. But as we're living our lives, we're living our lives locked in the cockpit. But we're doing all of the work on the pilots, but we're not taking into consideration that somebody is trying to open one of the doors or set the plane on fire.

00:50:56:12 - 00:51:01:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. And that can be very helpful to maybe check in with everybody that's on board, you know.

00:51:02:14 - 00:51:26:15

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. So it sounds like those low numbers correspond I mean in some of these other modalities we might call them trauma triggers. We might call it might be the shadow work that you need to do. There might be the fire and ifs or just different people that will come up and you're like, oh, like I need to pay attention right now because, yeah, whatever happened, panic or some other kind of utterly flooding.

00:51:26:17 - 00:51:44:03

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Absolutely. And think of it because there's one there's a couple of different situations. Right. Okay. And again with flying, what happens if one of those low numbers hits the call button and nobody notices? Right. That's your heart rate going up. That's you starting to sweat. That's your digestion change, and that's you dealing with more depression and fatigue than you normally do.

00:51:44:05 - 00:52:06:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's your body hitting the call button. Something doesn't feel right. Well, you respond and check in with me. What is an embodiment based practice to help that thing settle down? I don't even know that it exists because I've never been able to identify my triggers. Somebody has so common. But then every once in a while, something in life is going to happen where maybe trauma does happen, something catastrophic does happen.

00:52:06:09 - 00:52:25:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

You lose a family member or a baby or a job or hope, right? Yeah. And then you got to look at it and go, the something just blew it. An engine blew Ryan. And all of a sudden the door came off and people are flying out of the plane, and it's something catastrophic. That's not a cockpit based conversation.

00:52:25:07 - 00:52:45:08

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's something that happens in your life. Right. And then another analogy or another example is what happens if all of a sudden one of your passengers gets forced into the cockpit and in the cockpit and is asked to fly the plane, you know what's going to happen? A lot of turbulence, a lot. So when we talk about turbulence and we talk about being activated, that's a turbulent experience.

00:52:45:10 - 00:53:10:20

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

I'm asking what are all of the things that could create turbulence? But for me, if you take my lowest numbers and put them into the cockpit, I won't be able to land a plane without killing everybody. But could I keep us in the air for long enough for somebody more effective to get back into the cockpit? Yes, that I could, but recognizing sometimes your lowest numbers have to have an opportunity to even view the cockpit as a potential space for them to be in.

00:53:10:23 - 00:53:28:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But then, and, you know, if I'm a passenger and I want to be a pilot, there's going to be a hell of a lot of work to get there, right? Yeah. And that's actually possible. Like, what does it look like to reorienting the patient that was in my office yesterday who had a brain tumor removed nine years ago, came out of the tumor for what was supposed to be a pretty standard procedure.

00:53:28:20 - 00:53:51:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And he came out of the surgery as a quadriplegic, and he spent the last nine years trying to get function in his body back. Right. If I just start the conversation with him going, you're never going to walk again, then his idea of pursuing walking is already set. But when he's in my office yesterday and it takes less than 15 minutes using a tilt table that's behind me to show his body how to get weight bearing.

00:53:51:07 - 00:54:06:25

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Because we had a good case history, we had a good exam, and we saw that he had enough muscle tone to actually be weight bearing, but it had to be done in a way that was transitional. Then we actually get in weight bearing for the first time in two years, because we did it with an incremental on ramp.

00:54:06:25 - 00:54:25:04

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's not that I'm telling him you can't walk. I'm saying if you try to walk immediately, you're going to fall. So what does it look like to transition and to build and to have a process and to have an on ramp rate? So telling somebody that, no, I don't want your lowest number to fly the plane unless you want that, and then we're going to have to do some very, very intentional work.

00:54:25:06 - 00:54:39:23

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. So right now what is creating turbulence in your life, including maybe one of your pilots didn't remember to wake up when you have to land? It's great to be on autopilot for the majority of the flight, but at some point you're going to have to check in because you don't land the plane on autopilot. You don't take off on autopilot.

00:54:40:12 - 00:55:12:19

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And so all of those analogies come in with at the end of the day, have I taken an inventory or was I even given permission to be aware that I have pilots, copilots, flight attendants and passengers and everybody's got baggage. Right. So having that assessment is not that judgment and that understanding, not that qualification, starts to help with our self awareness of how we move forward and taking care of all the parts, no matter what their hierarchy, hierarchical or hierarchy.

00:55:12:29 - 00:55:14:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

maybe, you know. Yeah.

00:55:14:15 - 00:55:36:09

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, I love that. And I feel like that, lends itself so easily to that. Just the idea of neuroplasticity, because I think we are capable of so much. I mean, a lot of things will take a lot of work if it doesn't come to you naturally. It wasn't your natural go to, you know, number, coping mechanism, whatever you want to call it, traits that you learned growing up.

00:55:36:09 - 00:56:01:11

Kelly Deutsch

But, you know, I'm thinking of of a friend who's like, well, I'm just not a teacher. I'm like, well, I probably wasn't either. But then I spent like every summer in college, like teaching summer Bible school every single day, every like every summer for 4 or 5 years. And so I became much more comfortable speaking in front of people, you know, and it was something that that part got exercise in a safe environment because kids think you're all stars, you know?

00:56:01:11 - 00:56:22:16

Kelly Deutsch

And so then transitioning to adults, I'm like, oh, I actually can do this, you know, and or like the assertiveness, I had no energy, you know, but then having to learn that both because of my own health falling apart and, you know, things that happened like while I was in the convent and just different things that I was like, oh my gosh, assertiveness is so important.

00:56:22:18 - 00:56:35:09

Kelly Deutsch

Like, and so needing to learn that, have it modeled for me. Try it out like, you know, in sometimes it is totally freaky when that kind of eight that had been way in the back of the plane came into the cockpit and was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

00:56:35:14 - 00:56:36:09

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Like, can.

00:56:36:09 - 00:56:48:09

Kelly Deutsch

We do this? But just see when you do that and you practice it enough, you know, the next time I have to have like a very difficult conversation, I'm like, okay, I've done this. It's not comfortable, but I can do this, you know.

00:56:48:14 - 00:57:06:00

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Not a big deal. And, you know, this is a great thing with understanding things like poly vagal therapy or all dance equals work, right? This is what you just described as a functional way of changing our window of tolerance. It's like, how can we stay in the conversation for the curve to go up peak and then drop off?

00:57:06:07 - 00:57:23:21

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

If you hit the eject button before you get to the top of the curve, you're not going to know what your margin in your threshold is. Yeah, but if you stay in it in a safe and mental way, that's not traumatic and it's not traumatizing, and you can build a more robust window of tolerance. And if people are like, well, how do I change my window of tolerance?

00:57:23:21 - 00:57:47:04

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

One read everything by Dan Siegel. Okay, read everything by Hilary McBride. doctor Helen Brand, doctor Dan Siegel. but the other thing is understanding that, our stamina is built on intensity, frequency and duration, right? Or the severity of what we encounter. It's also based on intensity, frequency and duration. And what I mean by that is how strong was the experience?

00:57:47:06 - 00:58:08:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

How often does it happen and how long does it last? Right. If I leave for eight is one of my lows two number. So I can appreciate that. I'm, I'm not an aggressive or an assertive person, but I've had to learn to assert myself more, especially when I have a patient who is in the room who needs me to be that energy because they're so fearful of what the next year looks like.

00:58:08:29 - 00:58:26:24

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

When I have somebody who's in the office is suicidal because they've tried for 20 years to get better, it's not a good time to be a passive energy. Yeah, right. I need somebody needs to take control. And that's what eight energy is good at. Sometimes overly stop right. But if I know that, hey, my eight energy is showing up for this conversation.

00:58:26:27 - 00:58:44:03

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

And how many of these conversations am I going to have this week? Or I have four new patient exams this week? that's a lot. Eight energy for me. I might, I might that might be too much. Maybe I start moving forward my next year in practice and I get speedy patient exams per week because my new patient exams take three hours right?

00:58:44:05 - 00:58:59:07

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

So maybe 12 hours in a week is a little too much for my system. Or I go, you know what this is life giving is, is actually not as scary as I thought. So how strong is it? How often am I doing it for and how long does it last? If it's a positive encounter, it's going to build stamina.

00:58:59:12 - 00:59:05:28

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

If it's a negative encounter, it's going to be your gauge on what the what the degree of severity is that you experience with that negative encounter.

00:59:05:29 - 00:59:06:19

Kelly Deutsch

Yes.

00:59:06:19 - 00:59:09:11

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. So both of them work. Yeah.

00:59:10:16 - 00:59:43:28

Kelly Deutsch

yeah, I love that. Back when I was in corporate, I did a lot of executive coaching, and that was something that I love to do with people is just do some energy mapping throughout the day, you know, and to figure out, like, okay, what what sucks your energy, what is life giving? How does your like circadian rhythms and, you know, metabolism and all of those things go so that you know, when you need to, you know, I mean, trying to do your creative work like after lunch, like probably not a good idea for most people, but it's so helpful, just those embodiment tools that we have to be able to see, like what

00:59:43:28 - 00:59:57:01

Kelly Deutsch

makes me a more effective and just flourish human being. How do I become whole? And how do I live in a way that is in accord with the hardware, the biology that I've been given?

00:59:57:03 - 01:00:13:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the final points that I make for you, that you just tied in that I think it's really important is, one of the statements in the book that I wrote is it's it's not about being less broken. It's about becoming more whole. Right. And we're we're pursuing something. It's journey over destination.

01:00:13:16 - 01:00:47:16

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. But also it's realistically going, what is what is a pragmatic and sustainable amount of growth? And realistically it's 3 to 5% week over week, month over month, year over year. If we look at the stock market, we look at, raises in a corporate job, 3 to 5% growth year over year is really good. I mean, if you do 5% growth every year in your stocks and what you invest in, or you get 5% raise every year at the job that you've been working at, you're talking about a 50% increase within seven years.

01:00:47:16 - 01:01:15:01

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's huge. Right? I mean, compound interest comes in, and I'm sure somebody 305 is a much better understanding where the math is all that is living. But if you look at it as incremental growth that also provides compound interest, then it isn't about doing 50% better by the end of next year. In fact, your brain I will tell you wholesale, there's very few things that I adamantly opposed because that's not my energy, but the idea of 21 days to a better anything is a terrible idea.

01:01:15:09 - 01:01:36:18

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

It's a terrible idea. Most of the people who win the lottery are bankrupt within two years. Who most people who get gastric bypass surgery, 85% put on the same weight and then 10% more within 18 months of the surgery. If you make too drastic of a change too quickly, your body does not have time to adapt and acclimate and it will reject it.

01:01:36:20 - 01:02:03:05

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

This is why organ transfer cancer so difficult. Okay, you don't drop an organ in there and assume everything's going to be okay. Your body will fight the absolute hell out of that organ. So if we make a change too drastically, too quickly, our own bodies will resist it because it's so counter instinct active to the baseline process that our bodies have been using our entire lives.

01:02:03:08 - 01:02:27:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Right. So in that situation, 3 to 5% growth is not only manageable, it is sustainable. And then you may have years read at 15 or you may have 20. But if somebody has been married for 18 years and been a patient for 21 years, if somebody had told me that I need to focus on 5% growth year over year, and they had told me that when I was 20 or 30, my life would be drastically different.

01:02:27:17 - 01:02:49:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

But I only learned that in my 30s. I didn't learn it in my teens or my 20s, and 3 to 5% growth is profoundly effective as an investment strategy. So if I'm investing in myself, I can be okay with 5% growth and I can pursue more. But just understand the faster you grow, you better have a very firm foundation or else everything that you are building on top of it will collapse.

01:02:49:15 - 01:02:55:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

That's what happens. You see it all the time. So healthy and appropriate growth is key.

01:02:55:16 - 01:03:11:18

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think my my favorite thing about this whole conversation is just how these various tools are so effective at, leading us towards wholeness in such an affirming way that it dissolves shame.

01:03:11:21 - 01:03:12:08

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Yeah.

01:03:12:10 - 01:03:35:14

Kelly Deutsch

You know, it's something that you recognize. This is how I'm built. This is how my body was designed. My nervous system, my basic framework, like God created me in a certain way that I'm going to, you know, form coping mechanisms and personality traits based on what life has given me. And that's normal and good. And now we just need to learn to work with, you know, whoever's on the plane with us.

01:03:35:16 - 01:03:42:00

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Absolutely everything makes sense. It's just whether or not we want to sustain it. And those are two different things.

01:03:43:01 - 01:03:49:01

Kelly Deutsch

yeah, absolutely. This has been such a juicy conversation. Thank you so much, Doctor Jerome.

01:03:49:14 - 01:03:51:26

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me, Kelly. It's been a gift.

01:03:51:28 - 01:03:55:25

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. If people want to learn more about you and your work, where should they go?

01:03:55:27 - 01:04:02:13

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

The easiest way is my website is just Doctor Jerome. That, Dr. J e r o n e.com.

01:04:02:20 - 01:04:16:00

Kelly Deutsch

Wonderful. Well, I highly encourage you, anybody who's listening to check out his book, The Brain based Enneagram. There's some good things in there. He also has, a podcast on his website where he talks about a lot of any gram goodness. So go and check that out.

01:04:16:02 - 01:04:17:14

Dr. Jerome Lubbe

Thank you so much, Kelly I appreciate it.

01:04:17:20 - 01:04:18:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Thank you and thank you.