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Dreamwork as Spiritual Practice
with Daniel Renaud
Ever wonder what significance your dreams hold - or how the divine might speak through them?
Fr. Daniel Renaud is a spiritual director, religious priest, and dream worker, who loves integrating his Jungian dream work with his contemplative practice. He also trains other spiritual directors to offer dream work themselves. Today we’ll talk about
what dreamwork is,
how it can be integrated into your spiritual practice, and
how dreams can be a tool for healing our broken society.
I’ve also brought along one of my own dreams from the last week, and will ask Fr. Daniel to offer a dream interpretation live!
Websites:
Oblate School of Theology website
Father Daniel Renaud's Facebook page
Father Daniel Renaud's YouTube channel
Keywords and Tags:
Dream Work
Spiritual Direction
Shadow Work
Contemplation
Healing
Holistic Spirituality
Social Justice
Collective Healing
Inner Transformation
Relationships
Integration
Contemplative Action
Daniel Berrigan
00;00;07;03 - 00;00;35;27
Kelly Deutsch
Welcome to Spiritual Wanderlust, where we explore our interior life in search of the sacred. Many of us will travel the whole world to find ourselves but here will follow those longings within to our spiritual and emotional landscapes. In each episode, we'll talk with inspiring guests, contemplative teachers, embodiment experts, neuropsychologists and mystics with a blend of ancient wisdom and modern science, along with a healthy dash of mischief.
00;00;36;10 - 00;00;43;14
Kelly Deutsch
Will deep dove into divine intimacy and what it means to behold. I'm your host, Kelly Deutsch.
00;00;53;20 - 00;01;19;21
Kelly Deutsch
Hi, everyone. Kelly Deutsch here. And today I have. Joining me, Father Daniel Romano and Father Daniel is what we call a holy actor and a dream worker. He's a spiritual director teacher and he's also religious priest. He's an adjunct faculty at the Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas. And he's also the host of a new TV show on Catholic television called Becoming Fully Human.
00;01;20;17 - 00;01;36;24
Kelly Deutsch
He's a perpetual student who love sharing his passion for God, resilience and the contemplative life. And I'm excited to have him on today because we've got some fun topics in store for especially around dream work and shadow work and healing. So, Father Daniel, I'm very excited to have you here with us.
00;01;37;12 - 00;01;43;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. I'm looking forward to this time together.
00;01;43;20 - 00;02;06;02
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I am as well. I'd love to start our conversation today. Maybe with a little bit of your backstory on how you came into doing dream work, because I know you you not only offer it privately to clients, but you also train other spiritual directors and offer workshops in how to do dream work. So how did you stumble upon this as a as a Catholic priest?
00;02;07;06 - 00;02;50;14
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Well, I have to be honest, in saying that it began as an experience before I was a religious priest. So I come from a theater background. I was a drama teacher. And dream work was included in our training as a form of looking at unconscious material to experience forms of raw creativity, so to speak. And so before I became a priest, and a spiritual director in training, I already had kind of like this ground inside of me that where the dream work had been planted.
00;02;50;29 - 00;03;25;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
But it only grew more fully when I started doing my own spiritual work and also healing work myself. And I found that my prayer life and and you know as well as I do, you're a life coach and a spiritual director. People will often use words to hide from as opposed to expose what is really going on. And so I became more and more aware that there was this unconscious inside of me through dreams and shadow work that needed to be looked at.
00;03;25;21 - 00;04;00;16
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So as I did dream work with spiritual directors, I became more and more attracted. And then I found that not all directors were opened or comfortable with doing dream work. So I began to seek people who had experience in dream work. And I was very lucky about ten years ago, I had a spiritual director who was a union analyst, and she had the ability to accompany me through spiritual direction by using dream work.
00;04;00;25 - 00;04;37;06
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Now, at first it was occasional we would do like a dream once in a while. And then the more I did dream work, the more it became clear that it was a place where God spoke to me without too many resistances coming from my part. And also, I was becoming more comfortable with the idea that it was a little jumbled and not clear, because when I brought it to the spiritual director, what would come out would often be not ego driven in my wanting to understand what God might be communicating to me.
00;04;37;12 - 00;04;57;02
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And so I found that there was a quote unquote a certain level of surprise, but as well of purity with the material that came through my dreams and shadow work that often didn't come through when I was trying to, you know, self analyze or try to figure out what was going on in my own spiritual life. Hmm.
00;04;57;16 - 00;05;05;11
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. So I'm hearing that it was not filtered as much through the ego since it was raw, unconscious, essentially set.
00;05;05;27 - 00;05;31;14
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Exactly. Exactly. And even I would say that I personally didn't do much dream work alone. I always did it with somebody. And I think that's what brought me to wanting it, to wanting to do it by myself as well as as a spiritual practice. So normally I will do once or twice a week as my spiritual hour of prayer.
00;05;32;02 - 00;05;44;21
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I will do I will work on a dream as a way to enter into a relationship with God and and see if God is trying to reach me and how I am responding. Hmm.
00;05;45;20 - 00;06;04;14
Kelly Deutsch
For those of us who have never done any kind of dream work before and are just kind of curious about what this even is like, what is the significance of our dreams? And is God always speaking through our dreams or is sometimes it's just a kind of random firing of your brain or how what would you say to that?
00;06;04;14 - 00;06;05;13
Kelly Deutsch
Like, what is this? Well, I.
00;06;05;13 - 00;06;37;06
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Would think that not all dreams are significant, you might put it that way, but there are times in our lives, I think, for instance, when we think about the pandemic, you know, there are people who did and do say and studies have been done on this who reported dreaming more as a way of unloading some of the spiritual or psychological angst that was being created by the threat of this invisible virus.
00;06;37;06 - 00;07;07;00
Fr. Daniel Renaud
That was really befuddling us and also confusing us and just upending a lot of our lives in our calendar. And I think that somehow the interior life gets a little more intense when we are in more unusual circumstances. So I would say that I would pay attention to my dreams more and transition phases like before someone would get married before a new job.
00;07;07;29 - 00;07;28;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I even go to say that when I have people that come on retreats I tell them, try to pay attention to some of your dreams before you come on retreat or when you leave, because they might be either bookends or openings into avenues that you haven't thought really of exploring, but that your dreams might be pointing in a certain direction.
00;07;29;07 - 00;07;53;22
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So it's more of being attentive to the invisible life of dreams. You know, it's like a play. I come from a theater background, so to me it's like it's like a play that either God or my psyche, depending on how I see the dream being significant in my life, is kind of like writing and it's and is being written as it's happening.
00;07;53;28 - 00;08;21;08
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And there are characters and smells and, you know, it's almost like and some people dream in color or some of them very elaborate. So I think the first thing to do is to honor that they happen. And then and then then start to say, you know, is there some meaning there? You know, dreams are not foreign to the spiritual life.
00;08;21;08 - 00;09;01;04
Fr. Daniel Renaud
When you look at scripture, the Jewish people and the Talmud have a certain section on it where they say that any dream that's not explored is like an unopened letter from God. Hmm. And they also say that there is a possibility that there might be 24 different layered needs to one single dream. The Christians. And in the New Testament, Joseph had four very significant dreams and dreams are present in both the Old Testament or the First Testament and the New Testament or or the Second Testament so they're not.
00;09;01;04 - 00;09;28;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And visions and dreams might be included in the same kind of way that God communicates God's self, where people are actually acting on their dreams. Which is really interesting when you think about it, because it's not just about listening, it's about how people are acting on their dreams. And I think that that's even more important than just otherwise it might become somewhat of navel gazing, just just getting fascinated by your own interior life.
00;09;29;02 - 00;09;32;28
Fr. Daniel Renaud
But acting on your dreams, I think is just as important as noticing.
00;09;33;14 - 00;09;54;09
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, that's interesting because I, I think of some conversations that I've had lately just about the contemplative life and how, how important it is to have that active life paired with it and that I, I think in a lot of modern circles when we talk about the contemplative and the active, the assumption is that active means social justice.
00;09;54;09 - 00;10;18;27
Kelly Deutsch
You know, that you're social justice warrior. However, even though you know that's a wonderful thing, I don't think that's you know, at least in our Catholic tradition, what was typically meant are not exclusively that, you know, it's like that life of virtue and as at changing the way that you live your life and responding to your spouse, your coworkers, your kids, or how gentle you are with yourself when you mess up or, you know, all of those little things.
00;10;18;27 - 00;10;25;20
Kelly Deutsch
That's that's the act of life, the life of virtue and how it's incarnating what we received in our interior life.
00;10;26;12 - 00;10;56;04
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yes. And that's an excellent point because you're really touching on a very important aspect of dream work, is it really has to do with our relationship with ourselves, with others and with God. And acting on it is is very important. You don't want to rush things or see dreams too quickly as foreboding or foreshadowing something, but certainly noticing what's happening.
00;10;56;10 - 00;11;25;16
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I'll give you a very quick example. Last night I had a dream about hugging a character that is part of my past life. Before I was a priest and that person was resisting being loved. And I thought, okay, so the action that I'm called to do today from this piece of the dream is that I want to continue to let God love me and not resist that and do it actively today.
00;11;25;18 - 00;11;49;21
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So if people are manifesting love to me or if I'm being hard on myself, I'm going to catch myself. And it's very simple. It's an interior motion but it has very practical implications that don't necessarily mean that I'm going to go out and hug people right but that will radiate in my daily life.
00;11;50;11 - 00;12;11;28
Kelly Deutsch
That's an interesting example, and it makes me curious because I think some of us in thinking of what dream work might be, especially if we've not done it, or some people who have might take that as an immediate sign of like, Oh my gosh, I need to go look up this person from 30 years ago and go and give them a virtual hug and tell them that they're loved, you know, that that's the sign from God.
00;12;11;28 - 00;12;27;15
Kelly Deutsch
And that's maybe how they'd interpret it instead of looking at like, What if that's me? Like, what is? Yes, you know, and I wonder, is that how it overlaps perhaps with some shadow work of seeing yourself in the various characters in the dreams?
00;12;28;00 - 00;13;03;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yes. Darker characters or characters that exhibit certain what you called manifestations of the shadow selves would be people that stand out in your dreams, that act the way you don't self perceived normally. For instance, if I'm a very gregarious, extroverted person, it might be that the shallow part of me could be very quiet, very calm, very focused, or it could be that I see myself as very gentle a character.
00;13;03;01 - 00;13;31;15
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I get very angry with me or would be an angry character. So those would be manifestations of the self in the dream that I just related I wonder if this could also be what we might call the manifestation of of of a shadow that would be light as opposed to dark shadow because there is such a thing as our inner giftedness and our inner abilities that are also repressed and denied.
00;13;31;25 - 00;14;13;29
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And I think that a light shadow. So the ability to receive love might be something that is part of my light shadow that I am able to do it, but that I'm invited to do it more so when you're connecting dream work with shadow work, you're certainly touching on some very important elements of dream work where different characters might portray both your dark, but also a light shadow, or you might call it inner ability to behave in virtuous or gifted ways that you don't see that have been either enacted or practiced in your own life or that are in potentiality.
00;14;14;06 - 00;14;41;10
Fr. Daniel Renaud
They're wanting to to come out. And you believe that often with with women that would manifest itself with male characters and with men with more female characters where they would represent the other side, the other gender and how that isn't an internal thing. But he did believe that if we did that, it would affect also our outer relationships.
00;14;41;22 - 00;14;48;22
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So it's about relationship with the self, but it's never disconnected from our relationship with others. Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;14;49;16 - 00;15;09;17
Kelly Deutsch
And I I'm always curious about shadow work, and I find that to be really powerful as well, because I feel like it's such a coming home to yourself instead of projecting everything out there like somebody that I despise or really annoys me and just gets under my skin and recognizing, like, what is it in them that annoys me?
00;15;09;18 - 00;15;20;05
Kelly Deutsch
Maybe it's their self-righteousness and bringing that home to myself of, like, when when do I do that? Because I'm probably projecting what I hate so that it's easier to hate out there instead of in me.
00;15;20;25 - 00;15;57;16
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, some union analysts and psychologists have gone as far as saying that societal division is based on projecting the shadow part of ourselves in a collective manner. So your example is more an individual manner, but it could also be done in in a collective way. I'm a French-Canadian. I come from a French-Canadian background. And, you know, we had a very contradictory relationship with English speaking people because we lost the war.
00;15;57;17 - 00;16;27;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
The French lost the war to the British. The British one. The French were able to practice their culture and their religion. But there was always this and anti feeling towards English people. And it's easy to say, oh, because this person was English speaking. Somehow they are a bad they are going to oppress us. You can carry a cultural shadow, not just an individual shadow.
00;16;27;26 - 00;16;52;09
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And of course in the U.S., we've had manifestations of that through all of the issues regarding racism and how often we are very ethnocentric and tend to view the other culture from a point of view of projecting the darker parts of herself on them. And not seeing them for who they are. And of course they do the same.
00;16;53;09 - 00;17;09;28
Fr. Daniel Renaud
You know, it's a game that it's the kind of dance that, you know, people play more easily with one another, because when you do it by yourself, when the other doesn't enter into it, it kind of it really dulls the dynamic. Hmm.
00;17;10;14 - 00;17;28;28
Kelly Deutsch
Can you give me an example of that of of that collective shadow and how, you know, either I might or you might or somebody you know, on the street might recognize when I'm playing into that collective shadow, instead of bringing that home to myself and seeing like, okay, I'm maybe I'm projecting that.
00;17;29;18 - 00;18;07;03
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah, any form of prejudice, let's say I don't accept my own weakness. I could project that people of a different color or a different ethnic background or weak or vulnerable, and I would project my vulnerability or my weakness onto them. And it could also be a projection where when I enter into a relationship with myself and notice it, as you say, but it's more difficult collective because how do you change that collectively?
00;18;07;08 - 00;18;50;06
Fr. Daniel Renaud
See, working on and doing quote unquote shadow work by yourself or with a group is one thing, but doing it as a culture is a completely different ballgame. It becomes much more complex because so many people are involved and some of the ideologies are so entrenched Mm hmm. So I've done shadow work with groups, and I've done I've also done and I'm in training right now to do dream working groups and when you do it in groups, you're you're the blinders that you wear become more um, become clearer as you do the work and some of the defenses come down.
00;18;50;07 - 00;19;19;08
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Of course, like any group work, it's important to do it with a feeling of respect and of trust with each other. But, you know, when you share our dreams with each other, I mean, you're sharing the holiest of holies No, other than sexuality, dreams are probably the most private things we have and and experience. And so when we're sharing them with others and risk sharing, then I think healing can begin.
00;19;19;18 - 00;19;48;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Because when you're doing it as a group, then how can you not to a certain degree, end up doing and realizing certain things that would not be available to you? Like, I think every congregation should have a dream group. And I think that the pastor there should be in contact with them and ask them, how is it going?
00;19;48;01 - 00;20;27;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
What are people dreaming about? What what's coming up in this that can help healing? One author speaks about a dream group he did in a prison. And there was this really tough kind of big guy who was the ruler, so to speak, in this cellblock. And when they started doing dream work together about their experience of their own father and the violence and or the emotional absence that they experienced they found out all this vulnerability that they had that they were capable of displaying with each other.
00;20;28;04 - 00;21;04;15
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And within a very short period of time, the the dream group actually influence the ethos and the climate inside the cellblock where they found that the cell block and the people in the cellblock were less verbally and physically violent with each other because they had touched on that deep wound of having had terrible relationships with their fathers and images of masculinity that were very skewered and unique dimensional.
00;21;05;01 - 00;21;07;19
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;21;09;16 - 00;21;23;00
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. That can be so powerful when we share any kind of vulnerability together. Like, I think that really is the seed beatable healing is being able to share vulnerability and safety.
00;21;24;14 - 00;21;57;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah, absolutely. In a couple, you know, if you don't have that, how how can you really share that deep love that you have for each other? And it's an it's a discipline. It's a form of a set US ism, I think. Hmm. You know, asceticism the original word of asceticism is means practice, the practice. This what do we practice with each other in vulnerable spaces that make us available to one another.
00;21;57;29 - 00;22;42;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And when we do with each other, then, you know, other people see us do it, and they can be invited in it. They can't be forced. Of course not. But they can be invited in. And I think that doing our own inner work, but also encouraging others and to support communities to do it, that's what brings healing. I mean, I believe that, you know, laws, discipline, politics, all of those, we need to have those so that we live as a society but I also think that some of these really important, vulnerable spaces we create for one another, whether it's in congregations or in our relationship ships or in our families, are really key to healing our
00;22;42;20 - 00;23;11;17
Fr. Daniel Renaud
society. You know, T.R., the show, they used to say that when you give to the poor, when the money falls into the hand of the poor, the repercussions go throughout the entire universe. It's like when you throw a walk and a rock and water. And I think our inner work and our group work in dream and shadow and being true and real and face are true.
00;23;11;17 - 00;23;14;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Issues have the same impact. Hmm.
00;23;15;17 - 00;23;40;12
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I completely agree. How doing your own inner work, both practically and in some sort of intangible, profound way, you know, whether you call it spiritual quantum or whatever labels you want to use, but it's some sort of impact throughout the universe. You know, that whole butterfly effect, you know, of a butterfly walks its wings and, you know, there's like a yes or yes.
00;23;40;12 - 00;24;08;11
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It influences that. Yeah, exactly. On the other side of the world. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, Christians might say this is the Holy Spirit at work, you know, and others might explain it in other ways. But the bottom line is that when you feel and you own your own in a work and it's not someone else's responsibility and you're willing to journey with others, then you create communities of healing, of resilience that have an impact on others.
00;24;08;17 - 00;24;34;22
Fr. Daniel Renaud
But it requires, I have to be honest, a fairly high level of commitment like when I first started dream work, I realized how much work it was because, you know, I dream every night I'm a dreamer and everybody dreams it's just I happen to remember them a lot. But that also means that I have to put time aside to do this kind of work.
00;24;34;22 - 00;24;59;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And that's why I inserted into my spiritual discipline so that it really is integrated in in my journey with with God and with me being a Muslim minister, awesome priests that can be really there for for others and not work for my own projections. You know, that can have terrible consequences when you're a leader. Mm hmm.
00;24;59;04 - 00;25;21;04
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. That makes all the difference. Whether you are a healer yourself, you know, whether you're a therapist, a minister, or a coach or spiritual director, nurse, whatever, or you're just any other average human being on the planet Earth, the more you do your inner work, the more you're able to offer healing presents to others. And I think that's so powerful.
00;25;21;04 - 00;25;41;05
Kelly Deutsch
And that example that you shared of of that cellblock in the prison there is concrete, measurable results of how this changes cultures, even if it is just a micro culture. But still, if we have enough of those micro cultures that begin to overlap and touch one another, like that's, I think, one of the most powerful ways to impact culture.
00;25;42;10 - 00;26;09;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I think so, too. And I as I say, I'm fine with people that will impact culture by going out there and signing petitions and doing the other stuff. But my my contention is, what if you do that with the in a work being present, won't it color and change your motivations? You know, and won't it give it a different tone?
00;26;11;19 - 00;26;40;11
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. And I think that that is very important. I'm very comfortable with each of us having their own gifts. And I believe that some people have the ability to go out there and be very action oriented. And and I also believe that some people also have this kind of gift for contemplation. Now, both of them are related, as you said earlier.
00;26;41;00 - 00;27;16;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
But it seems like there are people who have a greater ability to go to the contemplative part and others that seem to have the propensity to go to the action part. If we stay within the shadow paradigm to explain this. I would say that we need contemplative to be more active. And we we need people who are active to go towards contemplation, because whatever is your focus is what's going to happen is the other part will be what is, quote, unquote repressed or will stay dormant inside.
00;27;16;27 - 00;27;20;06
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So if you look after that part, you're much more whole.
00;27;20;15 - 00;27;49;05
Kelly Deutsch
Mm hmm. Yes. I love that. And that's perhaps one of my favorite parts of shadow work, is just the wholeness that it can engender by bringing those parts of us that kind of atrophy in the dark, whether they're repressed or just ignored or whatever it is. But to recognize, okay, I'm not only called to be a contemplative. I'm called to be active or for the, you know, warriors out there doing the hard systemic work and political change.
00;27;49;20 - 00;27;57;20
Kelly Deutsch
Are you grounded in contemplative existence being presence so that we can bring our whole selves to the world?
00;27;58;17 - 00;28;23;04
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yes, absolutely. And and to see the connection. You know, when I was I'm a missionary. I belong to a missionary order. So it's all about getting out there. Connecting with culture and people speaking the word of God, but also getting to know them and really getting into the messiness of life. That's why I picked the order I'm with because they were so close to people.
00;28;23;12 - 00;28;50;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
They didn't have this kind of distance where they saw their religious or their priesthood is separating them from from the rest of the world. But there are people who are contemplative and who live separate from the world, and they have their own charism and I think that there is a complementarity there that we also need to appreciate, but we can't have it as a copout.
00;28;50;01 - 00;29;15;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
You know, I've had a couple of people say, well, I'm not a contemplative. I let the contemplative pray for me. And I say to them, well, if you're doing that, I'm really eager to see who you ministered to. And how they perceive you, because if you don't do your prayer work in your contemplative work, it's going to color your ministry or your life if you're a parent and you don't work on yourself, you know that it's going to influence your kids.
00;29;16;01 - 00;29;40;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
If you're self-concept, how are your kids going to self accept Mm hmm. You know, if you're very demanding with yourself, don't they get the message that being demanding with themselves is how they're going to get results? Mm hmm. So if if there is no awareness of doing that kind of work, it inevitably bleeds into all of our relationships Yes.
00;29;40;25 - 00;30;20;23
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, absolutely. I what's coming to mind is how many of us get angry at all the injustices that are happening in the world and sometimes act more out of the anger rather than acting out of love for, you know, whatever person is in front of us. And how a part of that is that shadow work of saying like, okay, yes, anger is a legitimate response to injustice, but do I want to act in anger or do I want to act in love and it's not like I I've had conversations with friends before who are like, you know, but I need my anger in order to like work for the oppressed, you know?
00;30;20;23 - 00;30;32;14
Kelly Deutsch
And I, I see that but I also see how limited that can be then for the lasting change of actually changing hearts.
00;30;32;29 - 00;31;02;00
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Absolutely. You know what you're saying right now? It's reminding me of Daniel Berrigan, Daniel Berrigan, who did some outstanding social justice work and you know, towards the end of his life, he admitted that a lot of the reason why he was doing what he was doing is because he was angry at his own father. And that a lot of the injustice and the anger and how he powered his ministry for anger.
00;31;02;21 - 00;31;30;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
However, having said that, you know, he was part of a movement that really saw that when you did do justice work, you had to pray first and make sure that you were not doing it from a violent place. The whole idea of nonviolence is so that the anger becomes a motor, but it doesn't become what the vehicle it doesn't tell you where you're going.
00;31;31;08 - 00;31;56;14
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It might give you the energy. And I agree with certain people that that kind of anger is legitimate. But the tone of how you do it, you know, like I'm thinking of the movement mad are you familiar with that? Many years ago, it was started by mothers who had kids who died it, by people who were drunk or with their kids were drunk and lost their life to it.
00;31;56;22 - 00;32;34;03
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And they created this association and they created it out of anger at the beginning, the anger they felt was what really gave a certain energy to what they were doing. I would imagine that staying in that energy, though, could be incredibly demanding. And also, you wonder, as you say, if it's not counter indicative, if it's not done with love, then we all know that anything that's not done with love can be questioned just because the motives always need to be looked at.
00;32;34;13 - 00;32;35;11
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm hmm.
00;32;36;15 - 00;33;05;25
Kelly Deutsch
I wonder if we can also change gears. I've been curious as we were preparing for this conversation, I was trying to think in my own life about dream work and shadow work and and pay attention to some of my own dreams. And so I wrote down a few that have happened in the last week. I'm curious if you'd be willing to just demonstrate for us, like, what it's like to do dream work because I personally have never worked with another person doing dream work.
00;33;05;25 - 00;33;14;18
Kelly Deutsch
You know, I've toyed around a little bit with my own dreams, but I'd love to see and share with our audience who's listening to what it's like to do dream work with another person.
00;33;15;10 - 00;33;17;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Sure. I'd be happy to listen to your dreams.
00;33;18;04 - 00;33;32;21
Kelly Deutsch
Cool. I wrote down a couple and scribbled them. I'll let you guide however this. You know, whatever I need to do. If you want me to set the scene or just describe what happened or you tell me.
00;33;33;05 - 00;34;02;10
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Okay. So normally when I do dream work, I say to people, Go where the energy is. If we have to pick a dream, go where the energy is. And also I'll ask people if they can think of giving a title to their dream, the one that they've picked then they they tell me the dream from what they've written, and then I ask them to retell the dream, but without reading.
00;34;02;19 - 00;34;29;13
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Hmm. So that they go back into it. And often when that happens, people will re-experience the dream. And because they're inside the dream, other elements might come out that weren't there when they wrote it down. Mm hmm. It's almost like you're re-experiencing the dream. And for this reason, we always do dream work by relating the dream as if you were there and using the present tense.
00;34;30;10 - 00;34;52;07
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So I always say to me, but don't say in my dream I was entering a door. It's more I'm entering a door. And then I see this etc., etc.. So using the present tense is also a way to enter into the back, into the the flow and the mystery of the dream. Hmm. Mm hmm. Okay.
00;34;53;08 - 00;35;04;05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. I have a lot of the few that I wrote down. I have one that stands out a little more than the others. So. Okay, can I go ahead and read it to you?
00;35;04;12 - 00;35;10;28
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Go ahead. I just need to take some notes. I I'll take a scribble a few notes, just as as a reminders.
00;35;10;29 - 00;35;13;03
Kelly Deutsch
Absolutely. Yes, I do that all the time.
00;35;13;18 - 00;35;13;29
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Right.
00;35;14;04 - 00;35;50;18
Kelly Deutsch
Okay. So I'm going to title this dream a new old house so my house sold, and I'm taking a walk, and I'm not I can't quite recall either. I'm going to visit, or maybe I'm just meandering in the neighborhood. I think I'm with two of my sisters and I recently sold this house that I loved, and we reached the neighborhood, and I see my house that I sold has been knocked down and it's replaced by a glass office building.
00;35;51;15 - 00;36;17;04
Kelly Deutsch
And I'm surprised at this. And next door to it, I think is another office building, even though, you know, the house was originally in a in a neighborhood and a woman comes out of this glass building that used to be my house and invites me inside and inside. It's like I'm the impression that I get is that it's an accounting firm or like a bank or something like that.
00;36;17;04 - 00;36;54;04
Kelly Deutsch
And there are lots of people seated kind of in this open floorplan around this U-shaped table. And they all have their little computers in front of them. And most of them are women. And I recognize a handful of them are my former coworkers. And so I greet the ones that I know and for some reason, I think the lady tells me that downstairs that in the basement it's still the same as my old house that hasn't been knocked down or to be this glass office building.
00;36;54;14 - 00;37;13;25
Kelly Deutsch
So I go downstairs and I have one employee following me, and I think it's someone that I went to school with in the past. Like I recognize her. She's blond, I don't know her super well, though, but when I get downstairs, it's not my old house. It's the vestibule of a church.
00;37;17;01 - 00;37;23;18
Kelly Deutsch
And I don't really remember much after that. I remember being kind of.
00;37;24;11 - 00;37;24;21
Fr. Daniel Renaud
You know.
00;37;25;09 - 00;37;29;21
Kelly Deutsch
Surprised at that. But that's where my memory ends.
00;37;30;07 - 00;38;00;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
All right. Well, thanks for offering this. There's a lot in there. Um, my the first thing I do is I asked a few questions just to see if there are certain things that can be fleshed out a little more or things that I didn't get in terms of the images or the order sure. And so that I saw that I, I get more familiar with your dreams, and I consider all dreams to be the holy of holies, very sacred so I thank you for offering it to me.
00;38;01;04 - 00;38;29;17
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And as I do this, after I have asked, I will ask a few questions. I will start using a little phrase before each time I speak. I would say if this was my dream and then it would it would be a projection of me entering into the dream and paying attention or being touched or having maybe an insight on something that I will offer you or you're the ultimate interpreter of the dream.
00;38;29;23 - 00;38;51;14
Fr. Daniel Renaud
All I'm doing is I'm appreciating the dream with and for you. I'm walking with you with this in the same way you do with spiritual direction. Except I always remind myself in you that this is your dream. It is not mine. And then when I give you something, it's a projection and it could fit or not fit because I'm not a d a dream interpreter.
00;38;51;14 - 00;39;00;04
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I'm not a psychologist or a therapist. I'm a dream worker. And I appreciate the dream Hmm. Okay, so I have a is that okay?
00;39;00;09 - 00;39;00;17
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00;39;01;00 - 00;39;22;13
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. So I have a few questions. The first one would be the house that you sold was in an actual house in your real life. Mm hmm. Okay. All right. And you say you're with 22 sisters mm hmm. Two of your own sisters in your own family. Or there are two sisters themselves. Each other? Yeah.
00;39;22;15 - 00;39;24;16
Kelly Deutsch
My. My biological sisters. Yeah.
00;39;24;20 - 00;39;25;22
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Okay. All right.
00;39;27;23 - 00;39;31;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And you say that this is was a house that you. You loved?
00;39;32;11 - 00;39;32;28
Kelly Deutsch
Yes.
00;39;33;10 - 00;39;36;29
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And so you had to sell it in the dream. Uh.
00;39;37;15 - 00;39;55;13
Kelly Deutsch
And, well, and in real life. So just in the last couple of months, I went through the process of of selling my house. So I had moved from from South Dakota to Oregon. So I went back and sold this house that I just loved and gave me so much joy. It was everything that I needed it to be.
00;39;55;13 - 00;39;57;02
Kelly Deutsch
And so it was hard to let go of it.
00;39;57;19 - 00;40;28;09
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Okay. So there's a dimension of of letting go of something that was really meaningful and important to you. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. So the the house has been converted into an office building, and you go inside, and there's a U-shape kind of office layout, and it's women in front of computers. Mostly women, you say? Mm hmm. And you are invited by a.
00;40;28;20 - 00;40;42;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And you say some of those you identify as being your coworkers. Mm hmm. Okay. Former coworkers. Correct. And then you say that one of them invites you to go downstairs. Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;40;43;11 - 00;41;06;05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. And I can't remember if it was the lady who invited me into the office in the first place, or if it's this woman that I recognize And I honestly can't even remember where I would have studied with her. But I have a clear face, and I think her name's Jen, and I'm like, I don't know who's high school or college or Italy or, like, but somewhere along the line, I met Jen.
00;41;07;04 - 00;41;13;13
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Okay. All right. So she's somebody from your past. Was there a positive connection with Jen? Um.
00;41;14;14 - 00;41;23;16
Kelly Deutsch
I would say neutral. The positive. Like, we were acquaintances. We had classes together. We would talk sometimes, but we never hung out outside of class.
00;41;24;01 - 00;41;44;12
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Okay. All right. And then you go downstairs with Jen. And as you are downstairs, you see that it's not really your old house, but it's a church. Mm hmm. And can you describe that church? What does it look like?
00;41;44;14 - 00;42;16;19
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, well, we're kind of. We're in the entryway, and I. It strikes me as one of those older churches from the Midwest that uh, let's see. We see how I describe this has older carpet under our feet. There are wood doors that lead into, you know, the main body of the church in front of us and a couple of stairs that go up to that.
00;42;16;25 - 00;42;27;10
Kelly Deutsch
So the entryway into the church has these big wooden doors. And then there's you know, the carpeted area, a couple of stairs up and then doors into the into the main church.
00;42;28;11 - 00;42;38;29
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And if you had three words to describe this church, like to qualify it, what would they be? Three qualifiers.
00;42;39;03 - 00;42;39;24
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00;42;44;22 - 00;42;50;06
Kelly Deutsch
The the three words that just immediately popped into mind without censoring them are old, stuffy and pretty.
00;42;51;08 - 00;42;57;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Old, stuffy and pretty. Mm. Okay.
00;42;59;14 - 00;43;29;12
Fr. Daniel Renaud
If it is, I just want to commend the fact that you don't censor, because then it's much easier to work with when you're not censoring, when it's the first thing that comes to mind. There's something where it's, it's, it's, it's I guess the word it pure might be. It's just more direct connection to it. I also, when you did and you close your eyes non-verbally, there seems to be a positive energy when you recall this place.
00;43;29;17 - 00;43;39;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So it's old, it's stuffy, and it's pretty, but there's also a positive energy. And when you close your eyes to recall it, there was a smile on your face.
00;43;41;08 - 00;44;07;08
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. I think overall positive, like there's some sort of sense of familiarity. You know, I mean, having grown up Catholic, that felt like a very familiar place, even though there wasn't, you know, I can't name it as like St Anthony's Church in, you know, some particular place. But, you know, it would have been very different had it been the entry way to a Protestant church where I didn't grow up and that would have felt foreign.
00;44;07;08 - 00;44;09;14
Kelly Deutsch
So there's a certain familiarity to this.
00;44;09;16 - 00;44;20;08
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm hmm. So familiarity would be another word that would be tied to this. Hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. All right.
00;44;22;24 - 00;44;53;13
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So let me offer you some of my projections. I think I've asked you enough questions, and I will offer some of my projections. Um, as I let go of this old house, I feel a sense of grief inside of me. And when I see the office there's a people working, it's. It's like the shift of location of the space.
00;44;54;01 - 00;45;29;17
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It's really jarring. It goes from being homey and loving to a place where people are working. They're working in the U-shaped If this was my dream, I'd be intrigued by this U-shape. Somehow, for some reason, I would wonder, why are they in that? Because in a dream most of the time, innocuous things like word, please, shapes, colors might reveal something deeper than we think.
00;45;30;00 - 00;46;18;00
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I mean that that's how our psyche really work. And so, um. And if this was my dream going downstairs would be a feeling and or maybe even a call to go deeper regarding how I'm feeling about this lost home. Hmm. Like, in many dreams, the you might say the problem or the exposition of what is happening. The dream itself might hold some key as to how to not necessarily solve what at least bring integration.
00;46;18;06 - 00;47;00;18
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So dreams have an integrated value, even within a single dream. So if this was my dream, I would wonder why is the bottom part where I go deeper? Why is it a church and not my home anymore? That would intrigued me. Hmm. Could it be that for me, this sense of loving home and the grief that I have towards it has a sense of me wanting to seek deeper into familiarity so that I can feel the grief, but also let go of the love that I had for this house.
00;47;00;23 - 00;47;31;18
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It's almost like might sound a little too simplistic. It's almost like the homey or sort of the family charity or homey ness of the church would be kind of a call to go to the place where I feel safe and that but and that is a kind of like, quote unquote, another, deeper home. Mm. Not just a physical place, but a deeper inner place.
00;47;32;07 - 00;48;08;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
You know, churches are often images for inner end and going downstairs young. And many other dream workers say that when you go down, there's something about changing levels and entering deeper within your own reality. And because of that, whatever happens downstairs can be revealing in many ways. It could be going down to the dark place, but it could also be going down to a lighter place or a place that calls for a form of resolve regarding something that the dream.
00;48;09;10 - 00;48;25;15
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It's almost like the dream is asking and positing a question And often there will be an image in the dream that will invite the enter into relationship with that question that's being asked. It has the beginning of an answer in there. Hmm.
00;48;27;17 - 00;48;34;05
Fr. Daniel Renaud
There's any of what I have said, either a fit or not fit for you or ring a bell.
00;48;34;27 - 00;49;25;26
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah, it does. Even though, you know, I didn't, I don't think I explicitly used the word grief with you, but that's something that I've recognized over the past several weeks. Is that there is a sense of grief that I've carried, letting go of a place that met my needs. So. Well, you know, it was a place that was like a haven for me, you know, and recognizing not only the good of what I'd lost, like, being right next to a lake and overlooking a field and, you know, vaulted ceilings and bright and spacious and just everything that I viscerally love but that invitation to go deeper and to find that that home within the that
00;49;25;26 - 00;49;49;24
Kelly Deutsch
place of safety, I find it kind of ironic that that that would be a church underneath. And also that it was the entryway of a church because I've also had some religious trauma and things. So sometimes churchy things can can be a little activating for me, like, oh, this this doesn't feel comfortable. But the fact that it did feel comfortable and familiar, but I was not like totally immersed in the church.
00;49;49;24 - 00;49;53;24
Kelly Deutsch
I was still kind of on the outside of the entry. Yeah.
00;49;53;26 - 00;49;55;05
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yes. Yes.
00;49;55;08 - 00;49;56;17
Kelly Deutsch
That's intriguing to me.
00;49;57;06 - 00;50;26;10
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yes. Well, there might be an invitation there that, you know, staying at the entry way is, you know, especially if you've been traumatized by church, then that the entry way represents will you come in or not? Kind of thing. Mm hmm. And what I find interesting about what you you've talked about regarding the house that you might go, I put the word grace there because you said it was really hard to let it go.
00;50;26;15 - 00;50;33;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm hmm. So that's why I use the word grief. But you're right. You did not use the word grief, but I felt like there was a sense of loss there. Yeah.
00;50;34;14 - 00;50;35;19
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, there definitely, you know.
00;50;36;16 - 00;50;57;17
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. And, you know, in dreams, dreams also connect things at an analogical level. So it's possible that losing something you loved with the house. If this was my dream, I'll repeat that. Mm hmm. It could be that there might be something where the trauma of church. You also lost something there.
00;50;57;27 - 00;50;58;27
Kelly Deutsch
That's very true.
00;50;59;10 - 00;51;11;21
Fr. Daniel Renaud
That you are looking to either regain or reconnect with. And the best way to do it is to get at the entrance. Hmm. And entering anywhere is the beginning of something. Hmm.
00;51;14;04 - 00;51;14;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm hmm.
00;51;17;10 - 00;51;18;05
Kelly Deutsch
Writing this down.
00;51;19;24 - 00;51;48;26
Fr. Daniel Renaud
So your your dream is a great example of how within a dream there are images that connect. And also that it's layered. So a house represents many things. The church can represent many thing. And even the idea of trauma and or at least grief or loss is also interwoven in there. And you see I'm not sure that that's how you saw the dream when you first looked at it.
00;51;49;03 - 00;52;05;29
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. No, as I was looking at the dreams ahead of time, I was like, yeah, I don't know how much is in any of these things. I mean, I knew that there was some kind of latent sense of grief with the house, so I knew there was a little bit of energy there. But I, you know, I mean, when I woke up and scribbled this down, I didn't really make much of it.
00;52;06;25 - 00;52;12;05
Kelly Deutsch
So it's it's really interesting to see how much can come out when you unpack it with someone.
00;52;12;26 - 00;53;00;24
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. One of the major things that we need to remember when we dream and in our society is very discursive and very rational, analytical in many ways, although it's also very irrational, but because the discursive and the rational and the intellectual are really put forward as being, you know, scientific mindset What actually happens is I think that when we have a dream, we are quick to draw conclusions and meanings and we go too fast And so what we need to remember is when we look at our dream, the either God or psyche, the Holy Spirit or our inner self color, what you will is trying to communicate something that the Dreamer does not already know.
00;53;01;07 - 00;53;24;00
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Hmm. And that's what makes the dream so attractive. But also, for some people, so frustrating because they're trying to get at certain images that somehow or meanings that they just you need to be very patient with some of your dreams and you can get a meaning from a dream. It could take weeks, months, some people years and a directly.
00;53;24;05 - 00;53;45;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
She couldn't figure out what her dream meant, and she had it. She was 11 years old and she was 83 when we met. And she said, I know you do dream work. And she said, Can I tell you my dream? And I had it twice. She said, when I was eight and 11, and the dream became this big dream that spoke about her entire vocational life.
00;53;45;27 - 00;54;20;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Hmm. But at the time, she didn't know. Wow. So this is an extreme example. But, you know, we need to hold and, and in a society that really emphasizes productivity, immediacy, etc. along with rationality, going to dream work as a certain element of subversiveness in the same way than and doing contemplative work. So I really appreciate that you offered this dream because it's a really good example.
00;54;21;00 - 00;54;25;13
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And for you to trust to open it up to me. I appreciate that.
00;54;26;00 - 00;54;30;05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being a safe space to be able to share that with.
00;54;30;21 - 00;54;31;05
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Sure.
00;54;31;15 - 00;54;35;06
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm intrigued. I feel like I got to go sit with that in further now.
00;54;35;23 - 00;55;06;12
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. And I will leave you with that. If this was my dream, I would want to interact more and have a conversation and go back to the entrance of the church and see what happens there. What do I need to say to God? Myself? How does it feel to be there? It's almost like entering deeper and more conversation with the image because dreams have the same quality that Scripture has.
00;55;06;20 - 00;55;15;09
Fr. Daniel Renaud
It's got a revolutionary energy to it, so you can continue to interact with it and it will tell you something that you don't know yet. Hmm.
00;55;15;12 - 00;55;30;10
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, I like thinking of it almost as like Alexa or Davina or something, you know, where you kind of mull over it and see what emerges and and you can read the same passage over and over, you know, I mean, dozens of times over the years and something new can emerge each time.
00;55;31;01 - 00;55;50;28
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. Yeah. And I need to add one thing, because you were traumatized by church. I also appreciate that you shared this with me as a priest. Mm hmm. I just want to say that that to me and I mean, it's moving that you're able to share that. Wow. I really appreciate that.
00;55;51;08 - 00;56;30;03
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's I mean, a whole nother, you know, hour that we could talk about is, you know, just trauma and religious trauma in particular. I know there's a lot of folks listening who have experienced something in that regard being hurt themselves or rejected or violated or whatever, whatever the trauma was. And it is, I think, a very sacred thing to be able to meet spiritual leaders, ministers, teachers that we can viscerally feel safe around.
00;56;30;21 - 00;56;53;05
Kelly Deutsch
You know, and I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of folks don't feel comfortable going to institutional church anymore because they're like, but nope, can't touch it. But to be able to find still circles or places, environments where we can still be deeply in touch with what is most spiritual and whole and real in us.
00;56;53;12 - 00;57;19;00
Kelly Deutsch
Because, you know, speaking from the I see I can say that while some of the things that I would call religious or churchy might feel uncomfortable or activating at times, but the spiritual core is so deeply alive for me still. And so being able to find places where that feels free and able to spread out a little bit, that's a really beautiful thing.
00;57;19;00 - 00;57;23;25
Kelly Deutsch
So thank you as well for being able to be a safe, safe place for that.
00;57;24;08 - 00;57;26;01
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Thanks. Thank you, Kelly.
00;57;26;10 - 00;58;02;07
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been delicious. It's fun being able to I love union work. I love exploring the inner world. And I think especially the union concepts, whether DreamWorks Shadow work, I think they're something that we're all intrigued about, but sometimes feel a little esoteric. Like I don't quite know how to work through that. So finding folks, whether it is a dream group or, you know, working one on one with you or anyone else who has that kind of experience can be really rewarding to explore those things.
00;58;02;07 - 00;58;15;08
Kelly Deutsch
Like you said that it's like dreams have something to share with you that you don't already know otherwise they probably wouldn't have shared it in that format. Actually, it's like I would have come into your conscious mind in another way.
00;58;15;16 - 00;58;48;11
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Exactly. And you know, there are very they're like, God, I believe they're very persistent. So if you don't get it, it's okay because eventually it'll come back. Mm hmm. So, you know, dreams like God and like our lovers and friends are very patient with us. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think that's an amazing gift we give to others to to to mirror that kind of patients, not to hurry things in in a very result oriented society.
00;58;48;11 - 00;59;09;18
Fr. Daniel Renaud
I think there's. There's something wonderful about that. You know, it's okay. It's going to come back. I don't need to fix this right now. You know, for your listeners, I think it's important to know that, you know, we don't have to do all the work all the time. And when we do the process is much more important than the result.
00;59;09;28 - 00;59;11;00
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Mm. Yeah.
00;59;11;23 - 00;59;24;01
Kelly Deutsch
That's a really great reminder to the unrest ness of it all. And the, the the holy waiting, you know, that we don't have to for something to be born, but it'll be born when it's ready.
00;59;24;20 - 00;59;27;16
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Hmm.
00;59;27;23 - 00;59;33;23
Kelly Deutsch
Beautiful. Well, Father Daniel, if people want to learn more about you and your work, where should they go?
00;59;34;15 - 01;00;05;11
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Well, they can go on the Oblate School of Theology page and find me. They can go to my Facebook page, which is Father Daniel. I know. Or am I I post regularly on there, and I will also post the TV show that I'm starting, which is kind of exciting for me. Because it's a new avenue, new area I get to preach through the media, which is what a lot of us have learned to do recently.
01;00;05;25 - 01;00;27;20
Fr. Daniel Renaud
And so I can be found through the Oblate School of Theology and or the Facebook page, and people can get in touch with me. I also have some videos of some of the classes I've given or conferences that are on my YouTube. So I have a public YouTube and people can view some of the classes I've given there, especially on dreams.
01;00;27;28 - 01;00;30;05
Fr. Daniel Renaud
They are they are public access now.
01;00;30;15 - 01;00;31;09
Kelly Deutsch
Awesome. Yeah.
01;00;31;18 - 01;00;47;17
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Yeah. So my last name is spelled R E and a u d e s. It's I know it's French, Canadian and it's often accompanied with my religious moniker. Or am I Oblates of Mary Immaculate? Hmm. Yeah.
01;00;48;02 - 01;00;59;22
Kelly Deutsch
Beautiful. Well, this has been lovely. Is there any last piece of, I don't know, wisdom or admonition that you'd like to share with with our listeners today?
01;01;01;03 - 01;01;52;12
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Well, you know, there's two. The first one is and I think it has to do a lot with the kind of work you do continue to listen to your deep desires for healing and for getting close to God. I think that you can't go wrong when you listen to them. And secondly, I would say trust your intuition that there are people on your way that are more than willing to listen to you even if you have to make that extra little step where you're kind of standing in the portico and waiting if something is going to happen And just to, you know, believe that there are extremely benevolent forces and people that are that are around
01;01;52;12 - 01;01;56;07
Fr. Daniel Renaud
you and and stay connected to that. Mm hmm.
01;01;56;21 - 01;02;16;08
Kelly Deutsch
Beautiful. Well, thank you, Father Danielle, for joining us today and sharing all of your wisdom and experience in dream work and shadow work and everyone listening. I really encourage you to check out his videos on YouTube or look him up on his website or Facebook as well. So thank you all for joining us and tuning in on this lovely conversation.
01;02;16;08 - 01;02;17;28
Kelly Deutsch
And Father Daniel thank you so much.
01;02;18;13 - 01;02;21;25
Fr. Daniel Renaud
Thank you, Kelly. Thanks again. Great to be with you. Provide.
01;02;22;03 - 01;02;22;19
Kelly Deutsch
Thanks.