Religion after Religion

“You cannot believe yourself out of belonging here.”

Tim Burnette founded a spiritual community that is hard to define. It’s not quite church - not everyone is Christian - but they do gather on Sunday mornings. They don’t even have a shared set of beliefs, only a shared set of values. Their goal is to be a contemplative community in action.

But what

does that look like, when everyone believes differently? When everyone is at different stages of spiritual growth? How do you make sure everyone belongs?

Join us on the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast to explore what it might look like to have an expansive, inclusive community centered in the contemplative.

Tim Burnette is a writer, philosopher, teacher, and founder of the Way Collective. He believes liberation is possible when we approach reality in a holistic, relational, embodied, contemplative way. He agrees with Vonnegut that: "You can see all kinds of things from the edge that you can’t see from the center."

Learn more about what he’s up to at www.waycollective.org.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:36:25

Kelly Deutsch

Hello everyone. Kelly Deutsch here. And today I am joined by Tim Burnett. And I'm excited about our conversation because Tim is the founder and curator of The Way Collective, which is a contemplative community for love and liberation, and Santa Barbara, California. He's a freelance writer, a process philosopher, theologian, and Disciples of Christ minister. He believes that through grounding our lives in loving communities of shared practice and values, that we can work for love together and help our society achieve liberation toward the common good.

00:00:36:27 - 00:01:16:04

Kelly Deutsch

Now, I've been curious and intrigued, Tim, by what you're up to, because it's not too often that you'll find something that is, like church, but not quite church. And that's contemplative in a group that's in an established kind of setting. And so I'm curious to hear about all of that and how that started. But before we get there, I'm curious just a little bit about your story and how you went from wherever you started in your, I'm assuming, Christian walk, but I'd love to hear, you know, where you grew up with all of that, to where you are now in this contemplative community.

00:01:16:06 - 00:01:42:14

Tim Burnette

Yeah. thanks for having me, Kelly. Appreciate it. so, yeah, my story is sort of meandering. I you were right. I did, grow up in a Christian household. My dad was a pastor, and grew up in a pretty sort of conservative Christian, house. And then, let's see in college and ended up spending some time in some more Pentecostal circles.

00:01:42:14 - 00:02:18:12

Tim Burnette

And after that, I spent about nine years in the Presbyterian Church, USA. And so, now I work with the Christian Church disciples of Christ. So there is, I call myself sometimes just like a theological mind, you know, just a there's a mishmash of a lot of things going on. but but definitely, you know, throughout all of that, I would say that my, my, my journey of faith has been one in which, there's, there's been a continual emergence of, of contemplative rhythms as something that has been fruitful and grounding.

00:02:20:23 - 00:02:37:10

Tim Burnette

you know, and so, so, yeah, I mean, there's there's a longer story there. I don't know how much you want me to unpack, but but definitely, you know, I would consider myself still being in the, the Christian tradition. It's just gotten much wider than I first thought. You know, when I, when I began the journey.

00:02:37:10 - 00:02:37:19

Tim Burnette

So.

00:02:37:19 - 00:02:56:03

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Would you share a little bit about that widening process? Because I think for a lot of our listeners have gone through something like that where, you know, whether it's through deconstruction or just crisis or something happens and it kind of blew apart the faith or religion that they grew up with. So I, I'd love to hear a little bit about.

00:02:56:04 - 00:02:56:24

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:02:56:26 - 00:03:31:06

Tim Burnette

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That I, I think that has well said and sort of indicates my own, story too. But, but yeah. So I, like I said, I was, I was working in a Presbyterian church. I had started seminary because I enjoyed ministry and, you know, love learning. And so in the midst of this process of ideological deconstruction, where you're always having to integrate new theologies, new perspectives, I also had this existential moment of getting diagnosed with cancer, in the middle of that journey.

00:03:31:06 - 00:03:58:12

Tim Burnette

And so amidst this world of changing ideas, I was trying to integrate, I had this sort of deep experience of my own finitude and, and mortality and pretty quickly began, you know, carrying an entirely new set of questions that, I found out were not super welcome at the seminary I was at. And nor were they really super welcome in the church I was working in and, and let alone some other, you know, relational spheres of my life.

00:03:58:12 - 00:04:33:08

Tim Burnette

And so I had to find a new conversation at the time, and yeah, found a really beautiful circle of, of wise and expansively minded folks to, to, you know, be with and and so it really came out of this experience of deep suffering that I was carrying on new questions about the nature of God and cosmology and, and then also the nature of like, what would be maybe something like mis theology or the mission of the church or what's the what's the Jesus movement supposed to be yielding?

00:04:33:24 - 00:05:13:17

Tim Burnette

because pretty quickly my even my sort of, social values, you know, transitioned, and, and so, so love became a really important center. And what, what did that mean? And how do Christians pass that out? And and so, so for me, I was it came out it was birthed out of this moment of trying to integrate this experience of cancer and chemotherapy and and theology and cosmology and, and so, yeah, I found myself in it in crossing, you know, one of like, what John O'Donohue calls those threshold moments in our life where you step into a new place and everything's different and, and then how do you how do you adjust

00:05:13:17 - 00:05:38:21

Tim Burnette

when you're there and how how do you find your people and how do you you know what I mean. How do you connect to the sacred canopy that you're given? and like I said earlier, that it's sort of had the the canopy had widened a bit for me to still find myself within, so but yeah, there's a little insight there into, some of the cause of that deconstructive moment for me that then had a ripple effect for a number of years.

00:05:38:21 - 00:05:45:05

Tim Burnette

And still I'm, I think I, for the rest of my life will likely be integrating. that so.

00:05:45:07 - 00:06:09:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I'm, I'm curious to to pause there and look at that a little bit because, as I think I shared a little bit with you before, you know, I went through my own cancer and illness and suffering and having that being blown apart, and I, I found that, I felt like Saint Francis, you know, when he had that night where he was, he spent all night in front of, you know, the Eucharist in the chapel.

00:06:09:14 - 00:06:25:24

Kelly Deutsch

And he was like, who am I, God? And who are you? And he just kept asking that over and over and over, who am I and who are you? And I felt like that was that was where I was in illness because everything was taken away. And so it was the three big questions of like, what's my identity?

00:06:25:24 - 00:06:46:00

Kelly Deutsch

Where do I belong, and how am I supposed to serve? What do I do now? And so I'm curious how suffering for you cracked those open. Like what was the connection point between I have cancer and I'm going through chemo to like now my social values have to do with love. Like can you build that bridge a little bit?

00:06:46:02 - 00:07:21:16

Tim Burnette

Yeah. You know, I think for me, just to be transparent, a lot of it revolved around God. And so the tradition I inherited was one in which we call in theology, the big, oh, God, you know, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, right. All the things that most of us are not, you know what I mean? And with that sort of understanding, especially, the way in which power is passed out in that kind of a theology, divine power, you know, there becomes a real problem of evil or a problem of suffering.

00:07:21:16 - 00:07:48:29

Tim Burnette

Sometimes it's called theodicy. And the road to answers that I was being given in seminary and in part of the part of that, a little corner of the Christian tradition I was in didn't, didn't help me make sense of my suffering, didn't really help me integrate what I was learning and what I was going through. And to be honest, just sounded like a pretty horrible explanation for for what God was like.

00:07:49:01 - 00:08:13:06

Tim Burnette

And so for me, it sort of looking for other options. looking for more like a more contemporary cosmology within which to have a theology, was really important because I didn't I realize I didn't want to say anything about God. That didn't have to do with the world we were living in, which I was experiencing to be one that was full of pain in a deep way.

00:08:13:09 - 00:08:46:13

Tim Burnette

And so. So for me, I gravitated toward I just sort of stumbled, you know, happenstance into this school of thought called process, thought. And it has all these beautiful sort of non coercive ways of talking about God and God's love. And so, so when I found out that we could have a theology without power being, the primary trait, or sort of like a kind of like omnipotent sort of philosophically means that nobody else has power, right?

00:08:46:13 - 00:09:09:18

Tim Burnette

If you're all powerful, no one else can have agency. So which is where we get a lot of sort of determinist, theologies from. But, but when I found that we could, we could have a God who was whose nature was love and that love was uncontrolled, controlling and non coercive, I found a place for myself to continue on the faith journey that I had begun, and,

00:09:09:20 - 00:09:44:03

Tim Burnette

And so that love then gets passed out socially. Right to to how do we how do we have human relationships? How do we have relationships to the environment? What what is it? What is a loving response to people who are consistently marginalized by our government and by our churches? And, and so that that sort of God question being transformed in that cosmology, that new understanding of the world and of the universe had had very real, embodied implications for how we should live as non coercive, loving presences in the world.

00:09:44:03 - 00:10:05:22

Tim Burnette

So for me, that was like a big it all kind of happened at once. And or, you know, as a process at once like of this, this deeper integration into the notion of love and what it means to, to invite, you know, the common good in our world. And so that was kind of the connection point for me.

00:10:05:25 - 00:10:07:25

Tim Burnette

Yeah. God was the glue, you know. Yeah.

00:10:08:00 - 00:10:27:21

Kelly Deutsch

And I love how incarnational that is, you know, because, yeah, it's one thing to just have a, an intellectual revolution, if you will. But when it really does change the way that you're living and deciding to make your choices day to day or who you count amongst your friends. yeah. All of that.

00:10:27:24 - 00:10:28:05

Tim Burnette

Yeah.

00:10:29:10 - 00:10:52:26

Kelly Deutsch

you mentioned, you know, you were able to find some folks in these wider spaces, you know, people who are, expansively minded. And I'm curious how that happened, because I know a lot of folks who go through a process of deconstruction falling apart. That's really difficult, even when you do make it into this reconstruction space of like, finding curiosity.

00:10:52:26 - 00:11:01:21

Kelly Deutsch

And, yeah, that spark returns. It's still hard to find community with others who are in a similar space. So how did that happen for you?

00:11:01:23 - 00:11:32:02

Tim Burnette

Well, I was very fortunate. I feel like to, stumble into a Rob Bell two day event down in Laguna Beach when he was still living down there. And, through that event and a couple of other relationships that I built locally down in, like the LA Southern California area, I just found out really quickly. I mean, again, fortunately, a new set of conversation partners who were doing theology from this other perspective.

00:11:32:02 - 00:12:01:02

Tim Burnette

One of the other early influences for me was something called Homebrewed Christianity, which is a podcast. So I'm sure some of you are familiar with. But Tripp is one of my best, my best buds. And, so and Beau Sanders to, we're a couple of people I found really early. And, you know, we we just got to spend a lot of significant time together pressing into this process not only of deconstruction and like, you know, sort of the French school of philosophy, their continental philosophy.

00:12:01:02 - 00:12:22:11

Tim Burnette

But but even to like, yeah. What does it mean to be a Christian? Now, what's the reconstruction look like? and, so, yeah, a bunch of a bunch of folks down, down in sort of Southern California area welcomed me in. And I feel very, very grateful to have have found them, because because it was a very isolating experience.

00:12:22:11 - 00:12:48:24

Tim Burnette

As you know, I think a lot of people, when they start deconstructing, you're like, wait a minute, I don't fit in my church. I may not fit in the seminary, man. I might not fit in my life group or my friend group or my family, especially sometimes like. And it's very it's you almost have to traverse the wild on your home, you know, I'll grab this podcast, I'll read this book, I'll, I'll just kind of go down the internet wormhole of references until I can find some ideas that are still inspiring for me.

00:12:48:27 - 00:12:58:15

Tim Burnette

But but yeah, so there was there was luckily, a small group of folks who, were around down there that embraced me and, you know, the rest is history, as they say.

00:12:58:19 - 00:13:27:00

Kelly Deutsch

So yeah. Yeah. As you connected with all of these conversation partners and people in these wider spaces, what eventually led to you forming this space that you have now, this contemplative community that, I mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds something like post church, like, you don't have to be Christian. You can be Christian. but has some shared values together.

00:13:27:00 - 00:13:30:10

Kelly Deutsch

Like, how did that come about?

00:13:30:12 - 00:13:58:09

Tim Burnette

Yeah. it came about primarily because what was becoming more and more evident over time was that the church I was working at at the time was not a great fit anymore. I think for both of us. And so I had this heart to have a space that was available for those of us who were sort of sojourning on our own in the ways I mentioned earlier.

00:13:58:09 - 00:14:18:26

Tim Burnette

And, you know, the the emergent church had been doing things like this for a long time in, in their own ways. And there's not much that we're doing that's that different from that. other than sort of naming the contemplative option and, and doing this community of shared practices and values aspect rather than belief, centric community.

00:14:18:26 - 00:14:50:13

Tim Burnette

So, but but honestly, it was just like it was the space I wished existed when I was going through what I was going through. And it's been my experience continually up and up to this day that there aren't a lot of spaces like this for folks in in different regions of the country and of the world. like, I was listening to some, some friends talk this week on a podcast and they said the number one question they get asked a pretty large audience is the number one question they get asked is, where can I go?

00:14:50:20 - 00:15:11:08

Tim Burnette

Like, I don't fit in my church anymore. I don't have any more to go. And so we're trying to the community that that is here now, we're we're trying to make this space together, you know, and it's been I think it's been a beautiful experiment in what community could look like or post church community, you know, contemplative community.

00:15:12:08 - 00:15:26:01

Tim Burnette

but it's just trying to meet that need where where there's a common space where you can be wherever you are and keep journeying and local community together, rooted in, in love and working for love together in the world. So.

00:15:26:04 - 00:15:33:20

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah. I loved on your website, you had written, that you can't unbelieve your way out of our community, which.

00:15:33:20 - 00:15:34:00

Tim Burnette

Yeah.

00:15:34:07 - 00:15:50:24

Kelly Deutsch

I think a lot of people could find both shocking but also incredibly refreshing. You know, that. Yeah, that beliefs aren't the center of this. And I'm. How does that work out? I mean, I have to imagine that there are people there who have a diversity of, of opinions and beliefs.

00:15:50:26 - 00:16:13:18

Tim Burnette

They do. Wouldn't you know, it isn't that isn't that so fascinating? Human beings, they're all different, you know what I mean? It just it works out. I, I don't know how to explain it. I would say, that one aspect, I think that's been really helpful to allow for that spectrum to exist is we do have a set of practices and values that people you sort of like to come to our community.

00:16:13:18 - 00:16:47:17

Tim Burnette

You're like, I want to live into these, you know? And so there's still that binding agent, that like historically maybe like a creed or a belief set has played. But for us, it's like we want these qualities to be reflected in the way that we live. And that allows I mean, I think it it sort of naturally or innately gives people permission to allow their beliefs to be where they are, you know, and, and so it's it gets messy sometimes, but it's not really been an issue.

00:16:47:29 - 00:17:06:10

Tim Burnette

in fact, one of the, the, the funny kind of aspects was this was I was working with a friend of mine to draw up, like, our relationship to the Christian story and how our community's going to do this through this, like, expansive sort of picture of, like, evolutionary history and like 13.9 billion years and all this kind of stuff.

00:17:06:10 - 00:17:28:15

Tim Burnette

And this is what it like the Jesus stuff is about. And, and our community was like, we we presented a retreat and our community was like, no, we don't really need that. So so for whatever reason, it's worked for them to just commit to this path. we say that we, we sort of engage with Christianity through stories, symbols, sacraments and sacred days.

00:17:28:15 - 00:17:58:16

Tim Burnette

So again, you know, more iterations, but it's pretty easy for people to kind of see like, oh, yeah, we many of us have this common language is common history with Christianity. And so we're not going to just like, throw the baby out with the bathwater and just get rid of the whole thing. What we can do is embrace the other thing we say is those loving and liberating parts of our tradition and keep keep those together and, and realize that there's not a coercive element here in Christianity.

00:17:58:16 - 00:18:13:26

Tim Burnette

There's only the invitation to love and this path that we're on. and it's it's just worked out that that people are people who can see that, and they they want to participate in something like that, have have come, you know, to be a part of it.

00:18:13:28 - 00:18:25:19

Kelly Deutsch

Do people find the way collective because they're looking for like, contemplative community or just because they're looking for something open minded or something else?

00:18:25:21 - 00:19:06:05

Tim Burnette

All the above, I would say. I think it's yeah, for some people, the contemplative thread is interesting. For some people it's really not. And they are more into the liberatory aspect of it, you know, or the social justice aspect of it. for others, it's just like a safe space when you don't know what you think anymore about Christianity, to come and hang out and have dinner and have a conversation and meditate a little bit like it's, yeah, I think people sort of span that gap through from deconstruction to reconstruction, sort from more social praxis to contemplative and yeah, everywhere in between.

00:19:09:27 - 00:19:35:01

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. I find that such an interesting kind of gathering when people who can be so diverse and not only, you know, in themselves, in their backgrounds, but where they find themselves spiritually, I mean, you know, welcome to humanity that's, you know, there is such diversity, but, finding unity without expecting uniformity.

00:19:35:03 - 00:19:36:28

Tim Burnette

Yeah, that's where it's at.

00:19:37:03 - 00:19:41:06

Kelly Deutsch

That's the key. But it's not always easy.

00:19:41:08 - 00:20:07:17

Tim Burnette

No, I couldn't couldn't agree with that more. It's, Yeah, we're still learning all the time. You know, we're still holding new, new depths, new spaces of difference. And I don't think that's going to stop anytime soon. I think we're going to have to keep sort of widening our circle, keep being more intentional about our language, keep drawing our practices, as a community forward to.

00:20:07:20 - 00:20:13:00

Tim Burnette

Yeah, to really become that together. So, yeah.

00:20:13:02 - 00:20:37:23

Kelly Deutsch

Hmhm what would you say is something presently that has been capturing your attention or even the attention of the white collective as far as like where you feel drawn presently and the context of where life is pandemic, all the unrest that has been happening over the past few years.

00:20:37:25 - 00:21:25:25

Tim Burnette

Yeah, it's a great question. It's it's so, so expansive. It's hard to pick one avenue, you know, I think that, as I just mentioned, we're we're really, I think making this space together and experimenting with what it looks like, the whole difference in a community, and different. It takes a lot of forms and shapes, you know, from political to race to sexual orientation, gender identity to, beliefs, you know, like, there's there's so much class, you know, and one of the, one of the aspects we've been endeavoring into lately that just happened a few weeks ago was we did this contemplative pause moment where I had people write down

00:21:25:25 - 00:21:46:12

Tim Burnette

on some anonymously on pieces of paper. What's one thing? What's one opinion or belief that you hold that you don't feel comfortable sharing? It way collective? Because as any community does, we've got a center of gravity, you know? You know, we probably lean a certain way politically lean a certain way theologically. And not everybody is like, oh, right at the same space.

00:21:46:12 - 00:22:16:09

Tim Burnette

And so, so I read all these statements and some of them were, contradicting each other, you know, like, and people had to just sort of sit in a, you a posture of welcome to all that. And it was pretty cool because it, it started it started a new sort of series of conversations around, wow, I didn't know we had such I mean, we the capitalism was one thing that came up and it was like we had somebody say, I believe in the free market and I'm not a demon.

00:22:16:09 - 00:22:37:26

Tim Burnette

And I care about poor people. And we had other people say. Another person said, I think if Jesus, what's happening in late capitalism, he'd give up nonviolence. Right? So I read I actually had to read those statements back to back. And so but that's, that's that's an honest reflection of what exists in our community. and we're all still for our practices and values.

00:22:37:26 - 00:23:17:26

Tim Burnette

So I guess it's a, it's an illustration to answer your question, which is, I think we're going to be learning into belonging for a long time. and coming especially coming out of the pandemic, the ways that we've been isolated and forced into digital connections in ways that are, you know, both positive and negative. and the other thing that's happening in our society right now, and how do we find local communal responses to that, I think is kind of what I've become really interested in is how can we hold that space and we collective and we're going to yeah, like I said, we're having a retreat later this fall where we're going.

00:23:17:27 - 00:23:41:14

Tim Burnette

I think we're going to process some of that as a community and, and just kind of press into what it looks like to become that. and to again, this is just another aspect of hopefully love, you know, casting out our fear because I think a lot of our division and our othering and our lack of belonging is, is due to, you know, some form of fear manifesting.

00:23:41:16 - 00:23:54:02

Tim Burnette

And, so, yeah, it's like I said, I think I'm learning alongside everybody too, about about what it looks like, but yeah. Yeah, but it's it's been fun to just start to journey toward that.

00:23:54:04 - 00:23:56:21

Kelly Deutsch

I love how real that is, you know.

00:23:56:26 - 00:23:57:03

Tim Burnette

Yeah.

00:23:57:05 - 00:24:18:13

Kelly Deutsch

Just because it's so easy, to surround ourselves by people who are similar. I mean, that's one thing that we long for. Obviously, I want to find kindred spirits who I can share and, resonate with on some deep level. But when we get stuck in our little echo chambers, it it can be we almost forget how to speak with people who are different.

00:24:18:14 - 00:24:32:07

Kelly Deutsch

You know who you know, one person who values the free market and the other person who you know is pretty sure that capitalism is from the devil or something, you know? Yeah, yeah. How do we how do we see each other as human beings.

00:24:32:26 - 00:24:52:12

Kelly Deutsch

Rather than just, you know, like, oh he's a liberal, she's a conservative or. Yeah. I'm thinking of someone that I spoke with the other day and she, she's a lesbian and she and her wife were out for a walk, and they lost their dog in a park. Oh, no. She said that. She's like, you know what?

00:24:52:12 - 00:25:18:24

Kelly Deutsch

Labels are so just surface level because a family wearing MAGA hats came up, like, helped us find our dog, you know? And she's like, wow. In any other context like this would like we would not have crossed paths. We would not have interacted probably much at all. But to see that these people are still like caring human beings, even if they hold completely different, you know, worldviews than we do.

00:25:18:27 - 00:25:44:00

Kelly Deutsch

But it makes such a difference when you just meet Joe versus you meet, you know, oh, here, meet my friend who's a liberal meet my friend who's bi, meet my friend who's, you know, whatever. And you start with a label instead of just seeing each other. And I think that's one of the gifts of community is first, you have a relationship, and then you can start to learn about all of the other, yeah, bits and pieces of our views and differences.

00:25:44:02 - 00:26:20:17

Tim Burnette

Yeah. I mean, we do contain multitudes, right? Like we're we're so much more than even our intersectional identity markers would, reflect, you know, I, I love that like, this sort of image of, like our, our identity not being equivalent to our biography or our history, you know, and, but the hard reality of that is that we, we also have these parts of ourselves that, that when they're public or they're political, which is kind of what that word means, they can they can harm other, other people.

00:26:20:17 - 00:26:45:12

Tim Burnette

And, and, so how do we not be reduced to one aspect of our identity or perhaps our political opinion or something like that? And then also, how do we create, relationships and frames for, for being in community that, that mitigate harm, you know, and that, that having a focus on impact and, and so, yeah, that's it.

00:26:45:12 - 00:27:00:26

Tim Burnette

It becomes. Yeah. Much more complex than, than, than any one of our sort of, you know, identity markers can, could capture. But, but it's part of the challenge of our time, I think, to on a, on a large scale level. So.

00:27:01:03 - 00:27:48:08

Kelly Deutsch

Right. Yeah. And I. I like the idea that contemplative practice really is a practice. Like we are practicing basically an inner stance, you know, of that receptivity. And I like how that exercise that you shared of everybody writing their essentially unpopular opinion, and having everybody have to hold that same stance, you know, like a welcoming of receptivity, and not immediately jumping to judgment or condemnation or whatever it is, but to just let it be what it is, which is so difficult because, I mean, in our day to day lives, we always want to form these quick snap judgments about like, oh man, like I feel sick today, or it's raining and I plan

00:27:48:08 - 00:27:51:14

Kelly Deutsch

to go on a hike and immediately we think this is bad instead of.

00:27:51:15 - 00:27:52:08

Tim Burnette

Just.

00:27:52:10 - 00:27:54:10

Kelly Deutsch

Letting it be what it is.

00:27:55:27 - 00:27:56:11

Tim Burnette

Yes.

00:27:56:18 - 00:27:58:27

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah those practices man.

00:27:59:00 - 00:28:25:16

Tim Burnette

Like yeah I think it's important to keep in intention. You know and it doesn't have to look any one way. But you're right I think that inner stance is, is vital for us to move from our resources rather than our reactivity in this kind of a world where everything is. So I mean, we were just using this word the other day, but everything is so, what's it called?

00:28:26:04 - 00:28:53:11

Tim Burnette

gosh, I can't think of it right now. yeah, but everything is so inflammatory, you know, like, it's it's so it's it's meant to get a reaction from us and we're we're wired. We are hard wired to react, you know what I mean? And especially fight or flight and all that good stuff, you know. But but how do we cultivate that inner intention and posture is so, I mean, so necessary right now.

00:28:53:13 - 00:29:13:05

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you said it before, I think it's the safety too, like being able to be in a place and especially a community where we feel safe because that's also part of our wiring, you know, is to be able to co regulate with other people. It's, you know, how many people tell me like, oh my gosh, it's just so different to meditate in a group.

00:29:13:05 - 00:29:36:24

Kelly Deutsch

Like it's just so much easier. It's like, yeah, because our nervous systems are built that way. You know, if you bring a depth of presence, like, our nervous systems work like tuning forks, you know, to be able to just, Oh. Thank you. You're just drawing me into that presence, and I my my whole system kind of down regulates into this.

00:29:36:27 - 00:29:38:25

Kelly Deutsch

System. It's just.

00:29:38:27 - 00:29:45:11

Tim Burnette

Beautifully put. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So vital.

00:29:45:13 - 00:29:49:13

Kelly Deutsch

What's your favorite contemplative practice?

00:29:50:27 - 00:30:26:11

Tim Burnette

That's a great question. I mean, I, I think it's probably a result of this communal effort, but I'm trying to as much as possible, think of contemplation more in terms of the every day. and by that, I don't mean one particular practice, like centering prayer, which I definitely gravitate towards. I wrote my dissertation on, like, you know, I like I like centering prayer, but I don't do it that often, comparatively to like going for walks at the beach or trying not to be reactive when my kids are bugging me or, you know what I mean?

00:30:26:11 - 00:30:49:17

Tim Burnette

Like for, you know, getting into having to deal with conflict at work or you know what I mean? Like, there's there's like myriad opportunities for me to be contemplative. And so for me, I think, like what you named this, this inner posture has become really, important to find ways to bring it into the everyday rhythms that I try to keep.

00:30:50:22 - 00:31:13:29

Tim Burnette

I do take a fair amount of time, for silence and solitude, which I'm a I'm like a, you know, I've got Enneagram four tendency type person. So for me, that's just me going, like, I'm gonna unplug. So I do that fairly often. But again, it's not always like Tim's out meditating in the wilderness. It's like, no, I'm walking on the beach just processing whatever I need to process through that day to be be more grounded or be more centered.

00:31:13:29 - 00:31:39:04

Tim Burnette

And, you know, and so it looks a lot of different ways. So I'm sorry, that's not more of a clear answer, but I think even when we try to teach contemplation away collective and to help other folks, you know that our phrase is like ground our lives in love for the work of love. I mean, that just practicing that sort of loving and kind attention toward your own thoughts and emotions and feelings is what we're really talking about.

00:31:39:06 - 00:32:01:17

Tim Burnette

So that that that perspective becomes more, more deeply integrated and more natural, you know, so that we become less reactive and, and so, yeah, I think it it just takes it takes an awareness and a level of intentionality that I try to carry with me as often as I possibly can. And. Yeah. yeah. So yeah.

00:32:01:24 - 00:32:23:10

Kelly Deutsch

I love that because, I mean, that's why I like that we call these things a practice because, I mean, just like any instrument doing your scales, it's like, the point is not the scales. Like the point is so that you have that ability to play or to respond in either without reacting with that snap judgment or whatever it is.

00:32:23:13 - 00:32:49:18

Kelly Deutsch

We practice that interior stance enough that when you are going for a walk in the beach or your kids are being a little crazy or something, you can return to that because you've practiced it so frequently, you know? Yeah, whether it is, you know, in centering prayer or something else. But I, I love finding those moments and being present and aware enough that you can carry that throughout the day.

00:32:49:20 - 00:33:33:17

Tim Burnette

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think our buddy Jim, family says it beautifully just to say, like, have have a, an intention or a time every day where there's no agenda but love, you know, that kind of thing. And you know, that inner stance of least resistance and all the phrasings that he might use there. I think that's that's where it's, you know, because we so often default to our whatever our, our thing might be judgmental ism or shame or, anxiety or anger or, cynicism or disdain, like, there's so, there's so much that's in the air, even just like in, in terms of our media relations, social media and news

00:33:33:17 - 00:33:53:25

Tim Burnette

outlets that that it's like we've we've all taken on that spirit on some level. And so having this sort of like time to exorcize those energies that we don't want to carry with us into our relationships and our work, like, we got we got to do it. You just got to. Yeah, you got to do it, you know?

00:33:53:25 - 00:34:07:24

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, it really does take intentionality, which is why I think there is such a prolific number of practices that people like. Try this. Use your mantra, try meditating, focus right breathing, do yoga. Right. You know, and yeah, those are all wonderful. It's like.

00:34:07:26 - 00:34:08:13

Tim Burnette

Yeah.

00:34:09:14 - 00:34:23:26

Kelly Deutsch

but yeah. Similarly if when people ask, you know, like what? What practice do you recommend or what's your favorite practice. You know, and it it is often just like find what grounds you like. I don't care if it is sipping your coffee in the morning or riding horseback like.

00:34:24:22 - 00:34:30:29

Kelly Deutsch

Find what it is and, you know, make your agenda love, presence, receptivity.

00:34:31:01 - 00:34:33:11

Tim Burnette

Yeah, I think that's that's it.

00:34:33:14 - 00:34:34:10

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah.

00:34:38:03 - 00:35:07:26

Kelly Deutsch

If you had to offer one piece of wisdom, insight, advice to folks who are perhaps early on in this contemplative journey, they've maybe maybe they've been through some sort of deconstruction. The idea of contemplation, mysticism intrigues them. what would you recommend? Like how do how would people get started? Or if they showed up to the Wake Collective and they said, hey, Tim, I'm intrigued by this.

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:12:29

Kelly Deutsch

I don't really know much about it or what it is. Where do I get started?

00:35:13:02 - 00:35:33:12

Tim Burnette

So I wrestle with this, right? Because I think I just say from experience here at Wake Collective, we've got folks who are like really into contemplation and they're going to meditate and like they've, you know, we've got we've got people who are just like, you know all about that. We've got people who like, couldn't care less about centering prayer, but like the idea of being for 11 liberation.

00:35:33:12 - 00:36:04:04

Tim Burnette

And so, so for me, like the first thing that came to mind when you ask that question is I would say to somebody who's beginning to inquire of the contemplative path or the inner life in a in a new depth. I would say everything is an invitation to go deeper into love. Everything you encounter, a big roadblock or a big trauma, like whatever the thing might be that you run into, that you're like, this can't possibly be a part of it.

00:36:04:04 - 00:36:37:08

Tim Burnette

It's part of it. You know? And so, so for me, like starting to see whatever comes through your psyche, through your soul as an invitation to be welcomed in loving kindness and integrated into your and surrendered, ultimately surrendered to love again. We we already talked about the practice side of this. We do this in myriad ways. But but I think for me, I wish somebody would have told me that whatever you're about to encounter or whatever, maybe dark night, you're going to go through whatever you're losing.

00:36:37:11 - 00:36:59:10

Tim Burnette

It's all a part of this journey of falling deeper into, you know, union with love. but it just doesn't feel that way. You know, it doesn't always feel that way. It feels like somebody is pruning something, you know, to use that John image, you know, but it feels like death a lot of the time. It feels like suffering.

00:36:59:10 - 00:37:48:28

Tim Burnette

It feels like hurt, feels like retraumatizing. Sometimes it feels like loss, grief. But the only I mean, I always go back to this, this quote by, a psychologist named Bruce Rogers when he says that, grief is really just love under the condition of absence of grief is love under the condition of absence. And so for me, everything we encounter, no matter how how drastic the the bodily experience or the emotional experience, no matter how hard line the storylines are that we create around what all of that means for us, all of it is just, it's it's an invitation to go deeper into love and into surrender in a new place.

00:37:50:17 - 00:38:20:02

Tim Burnette

yeah, I, I think that's kind of the whole path for me. So, I got lots of time left to keep. Keep letting go, you know what I mean? But, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think that's kind of it starts to take starts to eradicate the fear. around. Well, can this part of me be included or can can, you know, can love really be the widest horizon, you know?

00:38:20:05 - 00:38:24:17

Tim Burnette

Yeah. In my infinite inner life, you know, or, you know. So. Yeah.

00:38:24:17 - 00:38:48:23

Kelly Deutsch

Well. Right. Especially when, your outer life, you know, presents you with so many difficulties, you know, and I mean, this is kind of coming back to the beginning of our conversation, just the problem of suffering and what we do with all of the pain. And how can we possibly see this as, as part of the path? that's a difficult, difficult thing to embrace.

00:38:48:23 - 00:38:56:28

Kelly Deutsch

But when you do recognize that that love is the widest horizon, there's something so freeing about that.

00:38:58:29 - 00:39:23:04

Tim Burnette

Yeah I mean that back to the theology thing for me to the God idea. Like there's a lot of suffering that has to be in a wider horizon for that to even be true. And that's hard to swallow I think you know like there's not just our personal individual experiences of suffering, but like as you know, Doctor Barbara Holmes has been writing about in her last book, crisis contemplation.

00:39:23:04 - 00:39:47:21

Tim Burnette

Like, there's there's communal trauma, there's global trauma that we're going through. And so that that horizon of love has to keep getting a little wider and a little wider to, to to hold or embrace all that this universe throws at us. and that does something to how you think about ultimate reality, about God. And it does something to to love.

00:39:47:21 - 00:39:50:03

Tim Burnette

I think, too, and it's really important.

00:39:51:22 - 00:40:08:12

Kelly Deutsch

yeah, absolutely. Hmhm. As as we wind down our conversation, what would be a question that you would like to leave with our audience?

00:40:08:14 - 00:40:43:28

Tim Burnette

First one that comes to mind is do you want to be free? And by that, I sort of am implying that we're not, societally, I'm really talking about, you know, I think I think sitting with that question is really important because it, it can start to catalyze and lead us out of the systems and the relations that we're that we're sort of naturally tangled up in that are not freeing and, and giving us life and opening up for more beauty and more life.

00:40:44:02 - 00:41:06:01

Tim Burnette

And it'll start to expose those things. You know, if you really say it with that question. I mean, I think of it politically, sociologically, economically. I think of it holistically in terms of even like care and, and basic needs. And there's, there there's a lot that if you really sit with the question, like, do you want to be free?

00:41:06:15 - 00:41:12:23

Tim Burnette

do we do we as a society want to be free? That, that I think will will become unveiled, you know. Yeah.

00:41:12:25 - 00:41:38:06

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah, I don't know. And I agree that the union of the inner and the outer, you know, there's, if you want to work for justice, go home and love your family, you know, like to start with the things that are most immediate and not to neglect. Obviously, the systemic and the global, right. I mean, we absolutely need to work for those, but there's so much inner work that needs to happen as well.

00:41:38:16 - 00:41:41:01

Kelly Deutsch

for us to truly be free at.

00:41:41:03 - 00:42:09:00

Tim Burnette

Yeah, I love I mean, Dorothy Zola, liberation theologian, said that, you know, her. One of her goals in her work was to try to erase the distinction between the mystical internal and the political external. and I think that's just it. I mean, I think you and I spoke briefly when we first connected about, you know, the ways in which it's almost as if the the dark night of the soul maps over, sort of disentangling from sort of late capitalist relations.

00:42:09:00 - 00:42:30:11

Tim Burnette

And, you know, we're all subjects under late capitalism. So there's this. Wow, we really if we really want to be free and start to disentangle from some of the things that are actually working against, us and especially oppressing those who have historically been marginalized in our society. Like you're going to go through a lot of dark night type stuff.

00:42:30:11 - 00:42:51:14

Tim Burnette

You're going to have to have really committed, contemplative posture of love. but I, I do think that, you know, like you said, it's sort of, that you will be liberated both internally and our society will come to further and further freedom if we can compress it. So.

00:42:52:19 - 00:43:03:10

Kelly Deutsch

Beautiful. Well I appreciate you sharing some of your story and also positing some of these questions like what, what does it mean to be free. And do you really want it.

00:43:04:19 - 00:43:11:14

Tim Burnette

Oh no problem. Thank you so much for sharing this space and, and allowing me to be a partner in conversation. So.

00:43:11:17 - 00:43:17:14

Kelly Deutsch

Yeah. Absolutely. And Tim, if people want to find out more about you or the way collective, where should they go.

00:43:17:16 - 00:43:36:10

Tim Burnette

Yeah, they could go to weigh collective.org or.com. We'll also point you there. if you want to see a little bit about who we are, we are also upping our social media presence a little bit. So you can find us on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. and me, I'm just at TD Burnett on, Twitter for the most part.

00:43:37:00 - 00:43:55:12

Tim Burnette

I Instagram at TD Bernard also a little bit and yeah, but I've got some articles on medium. I don't write very often these days because I've got my, you know, hands in the dirt over here, but, but yeah, if you want to reach out, feel free to shoot me an email.

00:43:55:15 - 00:43:59:13

Kelly Deutsch

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing. And thank you, everyone for joining us.