Do you crave depth? Community? UNION?? Join us at the Modern Mystics School!
The Making of a Saint - with Fr. Bob Wild
with Fr. Bob Wild
Today I have joined a unique guest who has spent much of his life as a hermit, and is now in charge of the cause for canonization of a Russian mystic. That means he’s the advocate and facilitator for this woman to become a saint in the Catholic church.
Fr. Bob Wild was a personal friend and collaborator of Catherine de Hueck Doherty, a little known Russian contemplative. Catherine was a mentor to Thomas Merton and is known for her anti-racism work, introducing North America to Russian spirituality, and for starting a lay monastic community called Madonna House, of which Fr. Bob is a long time member.
Fr. Bob has spent his life serving in a variety of ways: leading retreats, living in solitude, editing Catherine’s books, and now is the postulator of the cause for Catherine’s canonization as a saint in the Catholic church.
_______________________
WELCOME TO SPIRITUAL WANDERLUST.
Contemplation. Embodiment. Mysticism. Mischief. Join former nun and neuroscience aficionado Kelly Deutsch as she interviews contemplative teachers, embodiment experts, psychologists, and mystics about the untamed frontiers of interior life. Each episode is jam packed with life-changing stories, spiritual practices, and powerful insight to support your journey toward wholeness and divine intimacy.
For FREE resources for your own spiritual journey (like the Psycho-Spritual Maturity Assessment!) - check out www.spiritualwanderlust.org.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:03
Kelly Deutsch
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Spiritual Wanderlust podcast. My name is Kelly Deutsch and today I have joining me, a unique guest who has spent much of his life as a hermit and is now in charge of the cause for canonization of a Russian mystic. This means he's the advocate and facilitator for this woman to become a saint in the Catholic Church.
00:00:25:12 - 00:00:51:02
Kelly Deutsch
father Bob is father Bob wild is a personal friend and collaborator of Catherine de Hack Doherty, who is a little known Russian mystic. or at least I would call her a mystic, a contemplative. At the very least, Catherine is known for her anti-racism work. introducing North America to Russian spirituality and also starting a lay community called the Madonna House, of which father Bob is a long time member.
00:00:51:04 - 00:01:11:13
Kelly Deutsch
Father Bob has spent his life serving in a variety of ways, leading retreats, living in solitude, editing Catherine's books. And now is the postulate for the cause for Catherine's canonization as a saint. So finally, Bob, I'm excited to talk to you today, hear a bit of your story, and to learn more about Catherine as well. So welcome.
00:01:11:15 - 00:01:13:14
Fr. Bob Wild
Good. Thank you. It's great to be here.
00:01:13:16 - 00:01:31:23
Kelly Deutsch
Thank you. So I'd like to start today just by asking a little bit about your story, because you were in a religious community like a monastery, you were also diocesan priest, and you've been a hermit and part of this community. How did that progress?
00:01:31:26 - 00:01:55:14
Fr. Bob Wild
Okay, let me let me start out with one of the most, fundamental experiences of my life. I was probably about 14 years old. That was in my bedroom studying Greek vocabulary. And I was I was looking through a book, you know, and you get kind of kind of, this quote, this point, it was what you're reading.
00:01:55:14 - 00:02:21:25
Fr. Bob Wild
And so I came across a quote by Leon Blau and it said the only, the only real tragedy in the world is a tragedy not to be a saint. Probably some of your hearers have heard that before, but for me it was a fundamental experience. So it probably was about 14 years old. But it kind of opened for me what life was really was really about.
00:02:21:25 - 00:02:53:16
Fr. Bob Wild
It was about union with God that if you if you attain that, you attained everything. If you missed that, you missed everything. So it kind of opened up for me the whole vision of what was what was life about. And so shortly afterwards, I came in touch with the Carthaginians. At the time, I was studying with the Jesuits in Buffalo, New York, when I came across the Franciscans in the Beautiful Flowers of Saint Francis.
00:02:53:16 - 00:03:25:00
Fr. Bob Wild
And that that said to me, oh, here's a way we we could really find God. So I, I was at the Franciscan seminary, and that shortly afterwards they found out that they were not exactly living the way Saint Francis lived. And so during that time, I had read Thomas Merton seven story about him. And in the moment, and I thought for the first time that there was such a such order as the Trappist in the United States of America.
00:03:25:00 - 00:03:51:28
Fr. Bob Wild
I had never heard that before. So a few months after that, I was in the Trappist replace called Geneseo of New York, which is still existence of my mystery, founded from somebody New York. And after two years, I discovered some of the things that Thomas Root was ready to about in his writing is that there's a lot of lot of activity in the it's just a lot of noise.
00:03:51:28 - 00:04:22:23
Fr. Bob Wild
And I said, well, this is this is not the best place for me and the voices of other places. So after two years, I left there and through a series of circumstances, I finally came across probably what is the most fundamental religious solitude community in the world. The Carthusian. And a few, a few months later, I was able to join the Carthusian that at that time they were in Vermont, New York.
00:04:22:23 - 00:04:54:00
Fr. Bob Wild
They were starting their first American, foundation in New York. And they sent me to England. Excuse me. Because of the language situation, and probably for two years there, I came across my most fundamental experience of, the presence of the Lord. Two, two years of almost complete, complete solitude, except for going to the Divine Office and different things.
00:04:54:02 - 00:05:26:15
Fr. Bob Wild
But it was a life of total solitude all week long, and I think that was the most fundamental positive mental change in my life, because, became clear to me that life was about the experience of God experiencing the presence of God in your life. And that was, for me, the most profound experience. But after after two years, they decided that they probably didn't have a location, which was one of the greatest disappointments of my life.
00:05:26:15 - 00:05:57:09
Fr. Bob Wild
And part of me is still in a cell in the Carthusian monastery. so I returned to, the States, and one thing led to another. I became, diocesan priest in Buffalo, New York. Spent, 3 or 4 years in the parish life. But in that time I became aware of, with that, how some friends of mine were going to move that house.
00:05:57:11 - 00:06:25:13
Fr. Bob Wild
And so I went there and, finally met with the community in Katherine. And it was it was one of the communities that, you know, the people were ready to go to community life, and many of them were living in the same community at central, etc.. One of the things was, the, the Christina, whose you can talk about a little later on, but that was one of the attractions for me in Life of Solitude and Silence.
00:06:25:15 - 00:06:53:04
Fr. Bob Wild
And so when I would, I went to come here. One of the most extraordinary things is one of the first. The first day it was there, I was sent to live in a in a Christina situation, which today would be unthinkable. I don't think people thought, but it was like, I can't recognize my desire for solitude, silence. And so that was the beginning of my life, my life as Lucinda could cover.
00:06:53:04 - 00:07:04:15
Fr. Bob Wild
So very briefly, that was that was my vocational and vocational journey up until Covid, probably about 1971 or so.
00:07:04:17 - 00:07:30:02
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Thank you. I there are a few things that stood out to me there. one is, is that, Leon quote or I forgive my lack of French pronunciation, but the the tragedy of, you know, the only tragedy in life is not to become a saint. And but your sentence after that was that life was about union with God.
00:07:30:02 - 00:07:52:24
Kelly Deutsch
And sometimes people don't equate those two. That's that sainthood, holiness, whatever. You know, words you want to use to describe it. Divine union feels like something so lofty. I mean, I suppose becoming a saint might sound lofty as well, and I'm curious where or how that understanding came to you. Like what is what is divine union even mean?
00:07:52:24 - 00:08:09:19
Kelly Deutsch
Because I think a lot of people are at least those of the people who are listening to this are often stumbling upon the contemplative path for the first time. And they've had some glimpse of that. But how would you describe what divine union is, and how did you discover that?
00:08:09:21 - 00:08:43:23
Fr. Bob Wild
Well, it's to to my the, journey that I just described you little by little, you doing your life of prayer and searching, asceticism, silence, all these different elements that we read about in the life of the saints. Gradually, what dawns on you is a growing, the growing presence of the Lord. I think it's a it's a matter of grace, but we have to do what we can, you know, searching for God and using all the means that are available to us.
00:08:43:23 - 00:09:06:09
Fr. Bob Wild
But little by little it begins to dawn. And one because does that mean that the Lord is, is really present as a living person, not just an idea. And it's a matter. It's a matter of grace. It's not a matter of a technique. You know that you do some technique in the works, you do what you can, and the rest is is the grace of God.
00:09:06:09 - 00:09:34:04
Fr. Bob Wild
But ultimately, it's a matter of a growing awareness of the divine presence. And only, only God can give you that. So it's a matter of do you really? Do you really want you do with God? And if you do, if you take the steps necessary of prayer and meditation, etc., and little by little guided his great goodness, he begins to reveal himself to us a living, a living presence.
00:09:34:04 - 00:09:49:05
Fr. Bob Wild
Not just an idea or a theory, but a living present. So I think eventually it becomes a matter of grace. God, goodness, revealing himself to you.
00:09:49:07 - 00:10:02:05
Kelly Deutsch
Why do you think that a lot of us on this path begin to crave silence and solitude? Or why do you think we begin to crave silence and solitude when we begin on this path?
00:10:02:07 - 00:10:09:27
Fr. Bob Wild
Right. I hear a theory that the silence and solitude is like the evidence of the presence of God.
00:10:10:23 - 00:10:38:29
Fr. Bob Wild
You have to think about that. You know, God reveals himself in different ways. But I've come to the understanding that silence and solitude is the way God communicates himself to us. And that's why it has such a great attraction. it's if you think about deeply enough, just think of the world of silence. It's a world. The immensity of, mystery is all the other elements.
00:10:39:01 - 00:11:04:27
Fr. Bob Wild
But I think it's God's. It's God's way of ordinarily manifesting himself to us. That's why it's such an attraction. It's not. It's not just the absence of noise, but it's a positive reality. And I believe, it's the reality of the evidence of God. The way God works, it communicates, to us. And that's the great attraction of silence and started for people.
00:11:05:00 - 00:11:17:15
Fr. Bob Wild
It's not only to enable us to get a, you know, aware of, get rid of unknown thoughts. That's it. But it's a positive reality of God's God's presence.
00:11:17:18 - 00:11:19:06
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, yes. And my.
00:11:19:06 - 00:11:20:02
Fr. Bob Wild
Theories.
00:11:20:04 - 00:11:41:24
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's such a spaciousness there, you know, that that you can discover within and within that silence and solitude. even though sometimes I was talking with someone the other day, I grew up in the Midwest, in the US, you know, vast plains and big skies. And I was talking with someone who grew up on the West Coast.
00:11:41:24 - 00:12:14:07
Kelly Deutsch
You know, I now live in the Pacific Northwest. And we are comparing notes, how I just crave wide open spaces. And he was like, I feel a little like vulnerable and exposed. And I when he's, you know, in those wide open spaces because he's used to mountains and forests. And I feel like that happens in the interior like too, sometimes when we come into those wide open spaces, sometimes it feels vulnerable and exposed, when we're suddenly no longer, surrounded by thoughts and distractions and stimulus.
00:12:14:10 - 00:12:15:24
Fr. Bob Wild
Yes.
00:12:15:27 - 00:12:35:15
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I, I wanted to also talk to you a little bit about, the Madonna house and if you could share with us what kind of life this looks like, because, like, is it a movement? Is it a commune? It is a religious community. How would you describe what Madonna House is?
00:12:35:18 - 00:13:07:23
Fr. Bob Wild
Well, first of all, it's, it's kind of a total community experience of of, Catholic priests and men and women. And it's a, it's a life together. We have a total community life of prayer together every day. We have a farm where they grow. We grow our own food is a total community of, taking care of, you know, meals and laundry and maintenance, everything that a total community involves.
00:13:07:25 - 00:13:31:28
Fr. Bob Wild
And here in Cumbria, there's about, I don't know, maybe 100 or so people living together. The transition was that the gospel is is it's a way of life. It's not first of all, the doctrine, the early Christians in the acts of the apostles, they defined themselves as the way. And by that that meant, it's a different way of living together.
00:13:31:28 - 00:14:01:03
Fr. Bob Wild
It's that a new dialog. And so it come here. It's a totally community way of way of life with everything, everything that follows. And and Catherine Carson said that life together is one of the great witnesses to the presence of God in the world, of the reality of Christ. It's a it's a living community that we try and love one another according to the gospel.
00:14:01:06 - 00:14:28:05
Fr. Bob Wild
And we're open to to people coming to live with us. I think one of the, one of the aspects of our community is that we're openness to guests come in. They don't they did well. They don't live apart in some separate house. They they participate completely in our community. We have life. And so we communicate to them the reality of the gospel, my life, my life together.
00:14:28:05 - 00:14:50:19
Fr. Bob Wild
And I think that one of the significant in in that we comparisons. But in a lot of the religious orders, if you come to visit them, you're often in a separate house and they might give you a talk once a day or something like that. But then the House believes in the life together. She said that our community was she described it once says the University of Life.
00:14:50:21 - 00:15:19:24
Fr. Bob Wild
That is where you come together and live together and communicate the gospel week after week, life centered life as a whole. We have to our right by actual living so massive. That house is a literal community experience. And, our life here and covered here is the center of our, our community. And so anybody who is interested in joining Medina House, they would come here and live with us.
00:15:19:24 - 00:15:50:18
Fr. Bob Wild
And after a while, if they decided to apply for membership, they would come and it would, be the beginning of their joining, joining our community. We also have a number of houses in different parts of the world, and we have a house in Russia and Belgium and England and different parts of Canada in the United States. So this is our attempt to spread the the spirit of the House, which is the spirit of the gospel, that a separate spirit.
00:15:50:18 - 00:15:58:20
Fr. Bob Wild
But it's it's Katherine's way of living the gospel that we try to communicate in a variety of ways.
00:15:58:23 - 00:16:13:08
Kelly Deutsch
What would daily life look like for a layperson? Like if I were to come and say, join and become a member? Like, do I still have a job? Is it something that's, you know, separate and set apart like nuns and, you know, monks do or what it's gonna look like?
00:16:13:09 - 00:16:39:16
Fr. Bob Wild
No, you you would first of all, you you live in the community and then you would follow the ordinary life of the community. There would be prayers in the morning. We have lords in the morning. You do breakfasts, manual labor. You could be assigned to working in the kitchen or at the farm or almost anywhere. And then lunch at noon and after lunch at noon is usually a spiritual reading.
00:16:39:17 - 00:17:07:10
Fr. Bob Wild
Somebody reads something and gives a few comments, and people share their insights about the reading. And then there's the dishes. There's always dishes. And every in every world there's more, more work. There's there's a, a small, tea break at at 330. Catherine got that from her life in England, the tea break. And then there's more.
00:17:07:10 - 00:17:32:05
Fr. Bob Wild
More work until the Eucharist. There's a daily Eucharist at 515. Supper that the evening, which could be a variety of any kind of things. There might be a a talk or free time. The evenings are quite, quite a variety, but that would be your schedule for the day would be pretty much following what the community lives pretty pretty much hour by hour.
00:17:32:05 - 00:17:35:22
Fr. Bob Wild
So that's that's the way we share our our life together.
00:17:35:24 - 00:17:41:01
Kelly Deutsch
So is it a self-sustaining, like, live off the land kind of community?
00:17:41:03 - 00:18:00:27
Fr. Bob Wild
Yes, pretty much self-sufficient. And we go we have to buy some things, of course, that we we grow a lot of our own food. We have maple trees. We have we hives. but what was it? The most of the fruit of the what we live out comes from our very framework.
00:18:00:29 - 00:18:23:10
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that, because I know a lot of people are really, taken by this idea of, of living off the land of, caring for creation in a certain way. and I'm curious what role the earth and the land play in your day to day life, because obviously it's an integral part.
00:18:23:10 - 00:18:31:04
Kelly Deutsch
But was that something that was part of the original vision, or was it just like, oh, well, we gotta figure out how to eat and work somehow?
00:18:31:06 - 00:18:53:12
Fr. Bob Wild
That was part of the original vision. I think, you know, there's a lot of talk these days of having lost contact with the world, with the Earth, our hands touching the earth and going on things. So that's that's part of Kathryn's vision that, we have to get back to actually touching the earth, growing things, having our own cattle.
00:18:54:27 - 00:19:16:28
Fr. Bob Wild
you know, people nowadays, just if they want something, they just go to the store and buy it. But so many people don't have any contact with life. They actually coming from the ground, from maple sirup coming from the trees, you know, lamb coming from real lambs. Everything is bought. And so we've lost our contact with living things.
00:19:17:18 - 00:19:36:12
Fr. Bob Wild
the only things we value are things that we have bought ourselves or made ourselves. But very few people that don't have contact with actually living things. And so a lot of the young people who come, they find that really makes the gospel come alive. The Lord talks about, you know, the seed growing and the flowers of the field.
00:19:36:15 - 00:19:50:09
Fr. Bob Wild
And now they can they can touch these things. That makes it makes the images of the gospel come alive because they're they're harvesting, they're planted, they're touching the living things by which we live ourselves.
00:19:52:04 - 00:20:22:23
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. So there's something so. There's just a different vitality when you have that connection with the earth. And I, I remember coming to appreciate it much more when I was in college because in South Dakota I, you know, I grew up in the Plains and I grew up surrounded by fields and farmland and, the rhythm of the seasons and of the earth and like, and even just the liturgy being involved in, you know, my, my Catholic upbringing, that was something that was kind of second nature to me.
00:20:22:23 - 00:20:34:11
Kelly Deutsch
And it wasn't until I went away to college that it was strange for me not to see a storm rolling in from across, you know, miles away, or, you know, it was just strange being separated from.
00:20:34:11 - 00:20:35:00
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah.
00:20:35:03 - 00:20:52:26
Kelly Deutsch
From all of that rhythm. And it's, it's so different when you do live in the city, you know, like I do now. It's it takes a real effort to, Yeah. Like you said, I guess. Get your hands in the earth and be that.
00:20:52:26 - 00:20:55:09
Fr. Bob Wild
You touch the living things.
00:20:55:11 - 00:21:16:06
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm. I'm curious to, Well, first of all, are people there when you become a member, is it are the laypeople also celibate? Are there families there, or is it's, you know, you commit or can you be married or how is that work?
00:21:16:08 - 00:21:29:12
Fr. Bob Wild
We've made a decision to remain celibate community. It's just a decision that we've made that you can you could just handle so much diversity. So our our approach is, it's the soul of the community. But we.
00:21:29:15 - 00:21:31:11
Kelly Deutsch
We do. Men and women.
00:21:31:14 - 00:21:56:06
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah, we do have what we call a kind of colony, which is retreats for families. In fact, this is the first, week it started this summer. Families come and they have kind of a, like, a retreat vacation together. there's there's a liturgy every day, but most of it is just interaction with other families. There's a place for swimming and sports.
00:21:56:20 - 00:22:07:20
Fr. Bob Wild
so that's our outreach to, to families. But the community itself, we just made a decision that we could just handle so much diversity. So it is a celibate community.
00:22:07:20 - 00:22:21:21
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Katherine started this later in life, and you, you said you met her through another priest friend who had been going up there. Was that right?
00:22:21:24 - 00:22:23:17
Fr. Bob Wild
Yes.
00:22:23:20 - 00:22:27:20
Kelly Deutsch
What was your first impression of Katherine like?
00:22:27:22 - 00:22:49:22
Fr. Bob Wild
When I first met her? She was in one of our what we call our arts and crafts center. She was sorting things. She she she loved the sort of things I think she liked to make decisions. So. So she was sorting, and I introduced myself. And as we were talking, the bell rang outside and it was a bell.
00:22:50:21 - 00:23:13:08
Fr. Bob Wild
that was one of our, members was coming back from some place. So she, she said very simply, you come with me, and I, I, I, I, I took this is very significant. She didn't say they usually stay here. I'll be back in a few minutes. She said, come with me. And we walk together. to the parking lot.
00:23:13:10 - 00:23:37:26
Fr. Bob Wild
And the this archbishop, who was a member of our community, he was returning from someplace. And you remember she knelt down in the parking lot and they asked for his blessing. And that that struck me that she I don't know if she did it for me or her or for herself, but it was her her way of showing reverence for the clergy of the church that we had lunch together.
00:23:37:26 - 00:24:05:13
Fr. Bob Wild
And and so that was my first reading. It was like she was she incorporated into the community. She didn't say, you you wait over here till I get back. But she she wrote me immediately into what was going on, is someone coming back into the community. And so that was my first impression that she really she really believed in, personally, you know, loving people and incorporating them into the life that was going out there.
00:24:05:13 - 00:24:07:27
Fr. Bob Wild
So that was my first impression of her. So.
00:24:08:00 - 00:24:29:23
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I love that idea. I know you mentioned that earlier, too, of the the life itself is is the means is the message even. Yeah. And I think of the community that I was a part of in Rome for a while and they would do, what they called conventions, which literally means living together. You know, they wouldn't have retreats.
00:24:29:23 - 00:24:53:23
Kelly Deutsch
They would just be like, come live our life. And, another person that I had on the podcast, Randy Woodley, also does something similar with he has, he's Native American. And so he but also, you know, Jesus follower. And so bringing people to experience how he and, you know, his family lives off the land and just you just live life with them.
00:24:53:23 - 00:25:20:16
Kelly Deutsch
It's like we don't really do anything special. When guests come. We just welcome them in. And but it's remarkable how powerful that is because it's so distinct from, again, our kind of urban corporate lives that we live to, to be brought into a different rhythm and lifestyle. And you get to feel it. It's so embodied, you know, it's in your bones, in your skin, it's in your manual labor that you do.
00:25:20:16 - 00:25:24:15
Kelly Deutsch
It's having lunches together.
00:25:24:18 - 00:25:41:09
Fr. Bob Wild
It's like the first thing the Lord said when the guys came to him and said, where do you live? He said, come and see him. Come and see how I live and live with me. So that's that's the most powerful experience that we can have living with people who are living the gospel with me.
00:25:41:11 - 00:26:05:26
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, yes. And you also mentioned, you know, Catherine had this reverence for clergy, but I also I mean, from things that I've read and things that she said, it sounds like she also, had no qualms about speaking very frankly to them when they needed to, you know, have a little talking to, what how how would you describe her relationship with that?
00:26:05:26 - 00:26:35:19
Fr. Bob Wild
Let's do a story. One of my favorite stories. A priest came to visit with that, and I said he had never met Catherine before. And they put him down for lunch right next to her. And during lunch, he was talking on and on about he's going to study psychology, you know, because that's the thing today, etc., etc. Catherine just listened, and after he was finished, she said, that's a lot of worship.
00:26:35:21 - 00:26:59:15
Fr. Bob Wild
And he didn't know who she was. He said, I beg your pardon? You said you you hurt me. It's an out of worship. He said. She said, if I want medical experience, medical advice, I go to a doctor. If I want psychological advice, I go to a psychologist. If I want advice about God, I go to a priest.
00:26:59:15 - 00:27:33:00
Fr. Bob Wild
Then she said, talk to us about God. And it really, really is really amazing. He told me afterwards, very angry, but for a couple of days he thought about it and he he decided that she was right. And so he never did go to study psychology. I became quite a good Evangel evangelistic Catholic clergy. So if she said that you were if a priest was going contrary to his real vocation, she knew how to shake you up.
00:27:33:00 - 00:27:39:02
Fr. Bob Wild
And he he he often recounts that story, that it changed his whole life, you know?
00:27:39:04 - 00:28:06:05
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, yes. I feel like that, kind of Easter quality about her, of just that bluntness, like some of the stories, even in her early anti-racist work and in New York and or when she was speaking in Georgia, you know, and I, I can't remember, where I read the story about, some I think it was a Georgian woman told her that she she stank like a Negro, and she was like, did you reek of hell?
00:28:06:12 - 00:28:30:07
Kelly Deutsch
You know, it's like. Right. No mincing words here. She, said it like it was, but I also wanted to ask about Catherine's Russian roots and what impact that's had on on her spirituality and on the Madonna house and how she unites East and West. What does that look like?
00:28:30:09 - 00:29:02:00
Fr. Bob Wild
Well, first of all, she she was raised, pretty much as it was this excursion, you know, the the Orthodox. I think even today they don't concentrate too much on what we call catechism or catechesis. The Reformation is mostly through the liturgy, customs, pilgrimages, through experience, you know. And so Catherine in her early formation was quite, was quite orthodox.
00:29:02:03 - 00:29:28:20
Fr. Bob Wild
But, at a certain point, you know, when she was maybe 7 or 8 years old, her father, because of his business, he had to move to Egypt, and she was put in a Roman Catholic school run by the Sisters of Zion. Their order was founded especially for relations between the Jewish people and the Christians, and for 4 or 5 years she had a profound vocation.
00:29:28:23 - 00:29:57:15
Fr. Bob Wild
She had a profound education in Roman Catholicism, and so before she was ever, ever had to leave Russia, she had within her what Pope John Paul two calls the two lungs of the church, the eastern and western lungs. And so when she when she finally was in England, England, she came across the same sisters in England who had taught her in, in Egypt.
00:29:57:18 - 00:30:23:08
Fr. Bob Wild
And so she decided to become a Roman Catholic because she knew she would probably never return to Russia. So she even even in that school in Egypt, she had a desire to become a Roman Catholic. And so she finally saw the opportunity to join the Catholic Church. So. So that began her her long experience of Catholicism in the Catholic Church.
00:30:23:08 - 00:30:49:10
Fr. Bob Wild
You know, she she was continued to be a Russian, but she, she tried to learn about her Catholicism. She was a what you might call a good Catholic woman. She went to the mass every day and stations of the cross and the Rosary. So, the people who started to join her in her a parcel to the poor, they were they were all Catholic.
00:30:49:10 - 00:31:19:06
Fr. Bob Wild
So she she hesitated to impose on them anything from her Orthodox Russian roots. So, so until she came to conversion, pretty much the Catholic person in her writing. She never she never went to Orthodox liturgy. She always went to Catholic masses. But when she finally came to covering here, that's another story. You want to get to it. She finally began to expose her, her Russian roots.
00:31:19:07 - 00:31:24:03
Fr. Bob Wild
And that's that's something we can talk about if you want to go into that later on.
00:31:24:05 - 00:32:01:11
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to really dive deep into Catherine in your upcoming class. for women, Mystic School, because there's Catherine has such richness to to her life. And I, I'm amazed at how few people know about who she is, because, I mean, when you start reading her and just imbibe her spirituality, I mean, obviously, you you feel this way as well, being the postulate her for her cause, that she has something unique and beautiful to share with the world.
00:32:01:11 - 00:32:19:20
Kelly Deutsch
And I, I hope that people, you know, whether they join the class or go pick up her book posting, or anything else she's written. She's just got such a beautiful depth, to to her writings and to her work.
00:32:19:23 - 00:32:44:16
Fr. Bob Wild
I don't say this lightly, but I, I have studied Catherine most of my life. I think her spirituality is one of the one of the greatest in her whole Catholic tradition. I don't say that lightly, but she has a profound spirituality that covers every aspect of human life. And it's not used to spirituality, you know, for contemplatives or missionaries or it's for kids.
00:32:44:21 - 00:33:08:02
Fr. Bob Wild
It's a spirituality for everyone. So I think it's it's very profound. And here her works are just beginning to be published. So I think once she is canonized, like I believe myself someday will happen, her works will explode and the, the tradition of the church and she will become really more well known than she is right now.
00:33:08:02 - 00:33:11:12
Fr. Bob Wild
But that's that's something in the future. But I believe it will happen.
00:33:11:14 - 00:33:24:16
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. What has formed that opinion? Why? Why is it that she is so profound and applicable to everyone? Like what are some aspects of her spirituality that stretch? I think it's.
00:33:24:16 - 00:33:32:13
Fr. Bob Wild
Because the Russian Christianity I think is one of the most profound christianities in the world.
00:33:32:15 - 00:33:32:21
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah.
00:33:32:25 - 00:34:12:10
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah. That when these people were exiled in 1922, 11, Lenin expelled some of the best minds and hearts of Russia. And this historians, you know, they set up different centers, especially in Paris. Historians are saying now that the best Russian tradition was really established in the 20th century outside of Russia, by these people who had been expelled by Lenin and it my latest book, my latest book is called The Catarina, which is the Russian word for Catherine.
00:34:12:12 - 00:34:41:03
Fr. Bob Wild
I try and show that Catherine is part of this wider movement of Russians who are expelled from Russia, who continue to, foster the Russian spirituality and tradition. So, so what you have in Catherine and a lot of the others Russians, you have a great contribution between the profound Russian spirituality and the Western tradition. Russia had been pretty much isolated from the West.
00:34:41:05 - 00:35:20:22
Fr. Bob Wild
But after the Revolution, some of that were highly, related to the Western tradition. So you have you have a kind of a combination of the great Russian tradition with Western spirituality for the first time ever after the revolution. So Catherine is one of the great exponents of Russian spirituality outside of Russian. Because of her conversion to the Catholic Church, she was able to combine that or her own person, the eastern and Western lungs that, quote unquote, to spoke about frequently, you know.
00:35:20:24 - 00:35:28:08
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, yes. When I, I have a period of illness where I was mostly bedridden for 18 months and.
00:35:28:08 - 00:35:29:04
Fr. Bob Wild
I my goodness.
00:35:29:09 - 00:35:33:25
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I during that time, I really fell in love with Russian spirituality.
00:35:34:00 - 00:35:35:02
Fr. Bob Wild
And did you hear that?
00:35:35:03 - 00:36:09:20
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. It was it was the first time that I read Catherine. It was the first time that I'd really read Dostoyevsky. And, it's a way of the Pilgrim and the like, so, you know, all those wonderful things. And, something that struck me about about Russian spirituality. Well, two things I think one is just there. It's almost like an innate mysticism like that Russia somehow has this mystical soul that feels and sees more deeply than many other cultures, perhaps do.
00:36:09:22 - 00:36:38:29
Kelly Deutsch
And so I loved that that came up in a lot of, Russian writings. But I also love how, I think this is probably true Eastern Christianity in general, that oftentimes the East takes path of beauty, whereas the West has been fixated on truth basically since the Reformation, you know, and we're like, okay, we gotta argue truths and define things into their minutia, you know, point three, sub point A, you know, and that's wonderful.
00:36:39:04 - 00:37:02:03
Kelly Deutsch
But I feel like beauty has a way of coming in the back door. You know, it kind of skips that like argumentative, rational part of our brains. And you know, whereas over here on the West we might be, you know, arguing theological points. I feel like in the East, in Russia they're like, here, pray with this icon, you know, just like, you know, see what it reveals.
00:37:02:03 - 00:37:07:04
Kelly Deutsch
And there's something, really profound about that.
00:37:07:07 - 00:37:33:12
Fr. Bob Wild
I think that's true. That's why the great theologian Hans were van Balthasar. He felt that beauty had to be restored to theology. Like theology can't simply be true. It has to sing. Yes, it has to be beautiful as well. So I think that's that's true. The, the Eastern Church often emphasizes that more than Catholicism. So I think that's true.
00:37:33:12 - 00:37:41:28
Fr. Bob Wild
But we're we're beginning to revive that. And to have beauty enter our our Catholic view.
00:37:42:00 - 00:37:42:18
Kelly Deutsch
Yes.
00:37:42:19 - 00:37:44:03
Fr. Bob Wild
That's happening, I think.
00:37:44:05 - 00:38:12:00
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. And I think that's at least from my own experience, I would say there was more of that in, in Roman Catholicism than there was for a lot of my, my Protestant friends. You know, at least in the Catholic tradition, there is, a tradition of art and architecture and music and, you know, all of that. yeah, I suppose it just depends, because I know there are plenty of, well, everyone has their own experience of Christianity, I suppose.
00:38:12:00 - 00:38:20:22
Kelly Deutsch
And so making sure that it involves the body and our, our sensual experience, like our five senses.
00:38:20:24 - 00:38:48:27
Fr. Bob Wild
I think that's one of the attractions of Catholicism is it appeals to the religious needs of people. people just don't have intellectual needs, but they have religious needs like song and liturgy and, icons and painting. And so I think Catholicism applies to the religious needs of people. That's why it's it's so popular and one of its attractions for where so many people you know.
00:38:50:20 - 00:39:19:20
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. I feel like so many of those that you just named are also just our embodied needs like we, we crave ritual or to express you know, and whether it's song or paint or sculpture or whatever, you know the creative expressions as well. one thing I wanted to talk about as well was what being a postulate involves, because I don't think too many people get to meet postulate.
00:39:19:21 - 00:39:29:04
Kelly Deutsch
There's people who are in charge of, you know, canonization process of a saint. What does that look like? Is it a full time job or what does it all involve?
00:39:29:06 - 00:40:08:10
Fr. Bob Wild
Well, first of all, of past leader, someone who has to kind of collect whatever he can about of life of the person. The church is, trying to decide if this person should be raised to what we call the altars of the church, should they be raised to canonization. So his or her job is to, is to provide all the information about the life of the person so that the church can make a decision whether she should go ahead and,
00:40:08:12 - 00:40:32:25
Fr. Bob Wild
Proclaim this person, you know, of the saint. And so that's been my job. It's, it's, Catherine lived such a long life, so she has a lot of letters. We estimate that she has about 50,000 letters. Did that, did that all of the same. Did that all of the same, you know, importance. But she wrote so much and lived so long.
00:40:32:25 - 00:41:04:18
Fr. Bob Wild
She lived 80, 89 years. So my job is, it's been to collect the information and eventually to present it for the church's, evaluation. So that's that's a process going out right now. It's right now. It's still that what we call the diocesan stage, that is it hasn't nothing has gone through Rome yet. But because of her long life, it will take a while before we can get all the information together.
00:41:04:18 - 00:41:42:11
Fr. Bob Wild
We have a wonderful archives. Here was done her. It's almost like a semiprofessional archives. And so we're we're kind of we're kind of ready for the final investigation. Whenever that will come. for the church to, to make a decision. So. But I, like I said before, I, I believe that her life is so profound that I believe one day she will be she will be canonized, but it's probably not going to be in my lifetime, or probably not even in your your young person's life, but it'll be probably in the future sometime.
00:41:42:11 - 00:41:47:03
Fr. Bob Wild
But I think eventually it will. It will happen. Please, God. So keep that in your prayers.
00:41:47:11 - 00:42:06:20
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, absolutely. I I'm curious what criteria the church uses for who gets called a saint or not, because if technically a saint is just someone who's in heaven, like, how does the church say, you know, this person gets to be called like Saint Catherine or not?
00:42:06:22 - 00:42:48:06
Fr. Bob Wild
But basically it's if they have lived in a heroic way, the gospel of the Lord. she talks about heroic, heroic life. So, you know, we're all trying to be, you know, good Christians, good people, but somehow people are living in a very heroic way. And that's that's for the saint is is. So the church tries to determine, did this person live a heroic, Christian lives not just an ordinary life, but was their life, lived according to the really profound, challenges that the Lord offered to people?
00:42:48:06 - 00:43:13:08
Fr. Bob Wild
So I think that's the criterion that their life was their life. The heroic life hmhm of the gospel. That's what the church tries to decide. So. So you look at what the person did, their writings, their experiences, their past. That was was this thing more than normal? more than the ordinary, Christian life. So that's that's the criterion.
00:43:13:08 - 00:43:14:06
Fr. Bob Wild
Basically.
00:43:14:09 - 00:43:37:08
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I love to that. Heroic doesn't necessarily mean like they accomplish huge things in the world, you know, like some people are going to be like a mother Teresa or you know, someone who just, like, did amazing things or founded an order, you know, and I Catherine did found like Madonna House in the friendship House in New York, but I love to that.
00:43:37:10 - 00:44:02:03
Kelly Deutsch
Saints also include, you know, married couples or porters, like people who were in charge of just welcoming people at the door of a monastery or, or Torres, for example, who just, you know, she died when she was 24. She became a nun. But, like, it's not like she went off and, like, became this crazy missionary all over the world.
00:44:02:03 - 00:44:08:17
Kelly Deutsch
I mean, she interceded, but a simple life can also be a heroic life.
00:44:08:19 - 00:44:40:13
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah, I think, but I think one of the aberrations of the church has been not ordaining, laypeople in the last 20 or 30 years. There's been a number of laypeople now be canonized. But I think in the history of the church that's had one of the blind spots, you know, we've ordained the bishops and priests and religious, but I think there's been a real lack of awareness of laity in the church.
00:44:40:13 - 00:45:00:17
Fr. Bob Wild
But that's that's changed, you know, and it just it will be a good example of that. But I think there has been a blind spot of, you know, recognizing lay lay sanctity in the church. There's actually there's a there's a lot of laypeople in the church. It's quite a.
00:45:00:17 - 00:45:01:02
Kelly Deutsch
Few.
00:45:01:05 - 00:45:20:01
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah, it's it's quite an aberration that, that most people can nice are religious and bishops. And I think that's a real aberration that has to change. And it's changed, you know, with the last few pope. So that's, that's true that that can that continuation.
00:45:20:03 - 00:45:41:03
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. Yes. I that's one thing that we really wanted to emphasize in our, in our women mystics school too, is to make sure that we have a number of, of lay women, because so often we hold up like Teresa of Avila or even Julian of Norwich or, you know, Hildegard or some of these great mystics, and they're wonderful.
00:45:42:00 - 00:46:14:27
Kelly Deutsch
but sometimes when their life is just so different than our own, it's easy to just leave them kind of on a pedestal somewhere on a shelf. Like, that's wonderful. But to have to have the Catherine Dougherty's and the Dorothy days and, other people, we're having one on Evelyn Underhill and Eddie Hillis, you know, just they make life and divine union feel so much more realistic and reachable for us normal people.
00:46:14:29 - 00:46:47:04
Fr. Bob Wild
It also portrays the real wrong idea of holiness that this holiness is mostly for religious. And I think that's that's kind of almost a radical idea, you know, that there's there's so much holiness in the church. And so it's very important that, that laypeople be recognized for their holiness. I'm sure when we when we get to heaven, we're going to be the love or lay saints that religious.
00:46:47:06 - 00:46:49:29
Fr. Bob Wild
All the mothers and fathers will be there.
00:46:50:02 - 00:47:02:24
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, absolutely. So sort of I'm just a couple more questions. One, you have been a priest for. I have written down 55 years. Is that accurate?
00:47:02:27 - 00:47:03:21
Fr. Bob Wild
Yes.
00:47:03:23 - 00:47:30:07
Kelly Deutsch
55 years. I'm curious. In all of that time, I mean, you've spent some time in silence and solitude, both with, like, carcinogens as well as at the Madonna house. You spent time as a diocesan priest, you led retreats. You lived with Catherine. You May 1st day be a saint. I'm curious what or how your perspective on the spiritual journey has changed in those 55 years.
00:47:30:07 - 00:47:35:21
Kelly Deutsch
Like what kind of lessons life has taught you in those decades?
00:47:35:23 - 00:48:12:16
Fr. Bob Wild
I think the main lesson is that every person his own calling is they try and tell people, listen to the Holy Spirit present within you, and be sensitive and courageous to the inspirations that you are being received. Like, I think every person has a very special vocation. You remember Cardinal Newman's great career that I have been called to do something that nobody else has been called to.
00:48:12:18 - 00:48:38:11
Fr. Bob Wild
And so in my spiritual direction, I try and call people that let you myself, that the field director is the Holy Spirit living within them. And then you have something that God wants to be done in the world that no one else can do, and no one else has been called to do. So try and be sensitive to that which is that mission.
00:48:38:11 - 00:49:10:26
Fr. Bob Wild
So, you know, like we think of the mission of Catherine Doherty of Mother Teresa, but, Kelly has a mission, too, and everybody else does. And I think to find that and discover that is one of the great, goals of life to discover what your personal mission is like. Like for myself, years ago, I discovered that my personal mission was to make Catherine Doherty known, to the rest of the world.
00:49:10:28 - 00:49:36:00
Fr. Bob Wild
And I think that's what's one of the great lessons that I have learned is that people have to be sensitive to the Lord present within them. And yes, there's the teaching of the church and there's all the spiritual writers, etc. but the main teaching is what Jesus said, the Holy Spirit within you. He will guide you to everything that I have said to you.
00:49:36:00 - 00:49:58:15
Fr. Bob Wild
And so that's that's important for every individual. That's the core, the core of their lives. I think that's one of the main lessons that that I have learned for myself and for other people that we all, we all have a special mission. so listen to the Holy Spirit in your heart. What that mission is for you. Yeah.
00:49:58:16 - 00:50:00:29
Fr. Bob Wild
What's that mission is for? Kelly.
00:50:01:01 - 00:50:42:25
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, I love that. And because I feel like so much of that is revealed in In Silence and Solitude, when we're able to get in touch with those, those deeper longings, those, they tend to be so subtle sometimes. Sometimes they're loud, sometimes they're very loud. but when we when we encounter our desires or even our spiritual wanderlust, you know, those, those unnamable longings and allow them to be incarnate and to follow those, those, yearnings that God has placed on our hearts, you know, I mean, even just looking at my own vocation and how it's unfolded, I thought it was in religious life for most of my life, you know, becoming a nun.
00:50:42:27 - 00:51:13:04
Kelly Deutsch
And so I entered this community where they were dedicated to spiritual direction and spiritual formation. And then life fell apart with this illness. But to see how those deeper desires are still being incarnated like I do, spiritual direction and spiritual formation now, just in a very different way than I anticipate it. And we, you know, so it's beautiful to see how those, those desires blossom in flower, sometimes in ways that we don't expect.
00:51:13:06 - 00:51:23:27
Kelly Deutsch
My last question for you, father Bob, is if people want to learn more about you or the Madonna house or Catherine, where should they go?
00:51:24:00 - 00:51:57:05
Fr. Bob Wild
Well, as as I intimated before. I believe that that Catherine is one of the great teachers of the gospel of the 20th century. The the Lord has given us a number of outstanding women in the 20th century, and I believe Catherine is one of them. So it was my great, great privilege, really, to study her life, to read about it.
00:51:57:05 - 00:52:24:29
Fr. Bob Wild
And I and passing on her her tradition to the whole future, to the whole future of the church. And so I'm I'm still writing, in fact, just a few days ago, I started another book. I've had published a number of, articles, magazines that most people have never seen. So are reading the book called Catherine Doherty 50 Years of Reflections.
00:52:25:01 - 00:52:25:24
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, wow.
00:52:25:26 - 00:52:43:26
Fr. Bob Wild
So that'll be that'll be my next book. So anyways, it's been my my great privilege to be involved in her and her tradition and her, passing on, the great spiritualities of the 20th century. So.
00:52:43:28 - 00:52:45:05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, so.
00:52:45:08 - 00:53:14:19
Fr. Bob Wild
One of my great reasons for thanksgiving to God, and even though I'm approaching 86 years, I'll be the same age as of the same age as the Pope. So, these guys, I'll still be able to function for a few more years, and I, I appreciate your your invitation and being with you and your, your friends today. So I thank you very much for having me talk with them and giving you my story.
00:53:14:21 - 00:53:26:00
Kelly Deutsch
Absolutely. It's been a delight having you here. And, if people want to learn about the Madonna house, I know you guys have a website. I believe it's Madonna house.org.
00:53:26:03 - 00:53:28:18
Fr. Bob Wild
Yeah, we have the good website. You know.
00:53:28:20 - 00:53:31:24
Kelly Deutsch
And I believe you can get all of Catherine's books there as well as.
00:53:31:24 - 00:53:41:08
Fr. Bob Wild
Yes, they're available. We have a publications office so they can write and order books from us. So I hope they look at our website. It's a very good website. They thank.
00:53:41:08 - 00:53:50:05
Kelly Deutsch
You. Yes, yes. And I, I mean, I hope sometime in the next few years that I get to come visit Madonna House and I encourage everyone else too as well. Maybe we'll take a little pilgrimage up there.
00:53:50:06 - 00:53:53:03
Fr. Bob Wild
I hope so, I hope you come. Kelly. Please do.
00:53:53:04 - 00:54:24:22
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, that would be delightful to come along. And I invite everyone who's listening as well to join us. in August here very soon to listen to your masterclass on Catherine Doherty and learn more about why she is such a powerhouse. And you know, one of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century. So, anyone who wants to join us, if you're not already in our Women Mystics school, you can join us at Women mystics.org, so feel free to come along for the ride.
00:54:24:25 - 00:54:27:18
Fr. Bob Wild
Good. I'll look forward to that.
00:54:27:20 - 00:54:29:13
Kelly Deutsch
Yes, likewise. Thanks for having.
00:54:29:13 - 00:54:29:28
Fr. Bob Wild
Me, Kelly.
00:54:30:03 - 00:54:32:25
Kelly Deutsch
Many blessings. Thank you all for listening today.
00:54:33:00 - 00:54:34:26
Fr. Bob Wild
Bless you. God bless all your listeners.
00:54:35:03 - 00:54:36:22
Kelly Deutsch
Yes. Okay.
00:54:36:25 - 00:54:38:00
Fr. Bob Wild
Bye. Bye bye.