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Why we Need Feminine Energy to be Whole
with Amy Piatt
What does it mean to be whole? Join feminine rebel Amy Piatt and Kelly Deutsch while we discuss how to integrate our feminine and masculine sides. How might our own integration become a source of healing for the world?
Amy also shares her recent surprise about a spiritual leader she trusts, and why it feels so crushing when our leaders fall. One Jungian possibility: perhaps we want our heroes to be good so we don't have to be.
TAGS
Spirituality,
inner life
Wisdom
Psychology
Neuroscience
Mysticism
Leadership
Vulnerability
Courage
Amy Piatt
Kelly Deutsch
Masculine and Feminine Archetypes
Spiritual Direction
Integration of Masculine and Feminine Energies
Human Experience Growth and Development
WEBSITE & BOOKS
00;00;07;03 - 00;00;35;27
Kelly Deutsch
Welcome to Spiritual Wanderlust, where we explore our interior life in search of the sacred. Many of us will travel the whole world to find ourselves but here will follow those longings within to our spiritual and emotional landscapes. In each episode, we'll talk with inspiring guests, contemplative teachers, embodiment experts, neuropsychologists and mystics with a blend of ancient wisdom and modern science, along with a healthy dash of mischief.
00;00;36;10 - 00;00;43;14
Kelly Deutsch
Will deep dove into divine intimacy and what it means to behold. I'm your host, Kelly Deutsch.
00;00;56;09 - 00;01;36;19
Kelly Deutsch
Hi, everyone. Kelly Deutsch chair. And welcome to our first ever episode of Spiritual Wanderlust. I'm really excited to have you here with us. If you haven't heard of our new endeavor here and both contemplative monk and in this spiritual wanderlust community, we are starting this series to explore your inner life, the interior world everything that has to do with the contemplative life and mysticism and psychology and embodiment and neuroscience, asking big questions and looking at all those mysterious things that lie beyond black and white answers.
00;01;37;05 - 00;02;13;21
Kelly Deutsch
So we're excited to have you here. There's a lot of fun and mischief to be had in these interior spaces, and we've recognized how hungry we all are for meaningful conversations and to have ways to navigate all of this liminal city that we've been living in lately. I mean, I don't think you'd have to be living under a rock to not have experienced some level of that liminal city in these last two years with all the craziness socially, politically, medically going on all around us.
00;02;14;20 - 00;02;38;11
Kelly Deutsch
And we want to be able to learn from ancient wisdom, from that perennial tradition that seems to be in our bones as humans, something that's in our human nature. The questions that we ask, the wisdom that's passed down through the ages. And I love bringing in all the fun science and just current things and themes as well.
00;02;40;18 - 00;03;17;11
Kelly Deutsch
To help us navigate all of the craziness and wonder that this world in this life is so I'm excited. Today I have joining me my friend Amy Piatt. And Amy and I have been collaborating for a year and a half and I'm excited to just explore some ideas together. We've been talking lately about what it means to be whole, especially integrating the feminine with the masculine, because there's a lot of unfortunately toxic masculinity around out there.
00;03;17;22 - 00;03;42;27
Kelly Deutsch
And when we are able to combine the good in the masculine energy with with the good in the feminine, it can be such a beautiful thing, especially for people in leadership, because oof, people in leadership are held on such a pedestal and when they're in the spotlight like they are when they fall and when they don't know how to.
00;03;42;27 - 00;03;43;13
Amy Piatt
Be whole.
00;03;44;17 - 00;03;54;07
Kelly Deutsch
Man, that can just be so difficult for all the rest of us to watch that. So, Amy, I know you had a story that you were going to share about that.
00;03;57;18 - 00;04;22;01
Amy Piatt
And I was telling Kelly earlier that I recently had an experience of finding out that someone who I just adore their work, they're mine. I've read a lot of stuff by mine and learned so much from them. And I still will continue to do that. But I found out that they have recently had, shall we say, some very human struggles with addiction.
00;04;22;25 - 00;04;55;19
Amy Piatt
And even like run-Ins with the law. And you would think that, like, I don't know, at some point I would learn not to put people up on a pedestal and expect them to be anything other than human. But I still make the mistake, even though I myself as a pastor, really try to resist that tendency to be to be raised up to be anything other than just me.
00;04;55;20 - 00;05;35;28
Amy Piatt
Amy flaws and all. Sometimes we need to lift people out, but then we're heartbroken. I was just disheartened when they fall And so, like the need for that, first of all, what is that? And then how can we maybe not set people up and set ourselves up for that? I'm thinking about like Rene Girardi, who talks about a scapegoat and a need to have someone to blame and sort of like cast all of our I hate the word sin, but that's sort of the culture from which it comes.
00;05;37;12 - 00;05;48;23
Amy Piatt
Our shortcomings, our shadow on and then we run it off a cliff and we can wash our hands off of it. Right. Well, is this sort of like the the bookend to that? I don't know. What do you think?
00;05;48;29 - 00;06;06;04
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. So I was just having this conversation the other day with a friend of mine. I'll call him Bill and Bill and I study the in the room together. And he was a seminarian at the time. I was in the convent. And he came back and I was ordained a priest and had been a priest for a handful of years.
00;06;06;16 - 00;06;27;25
Kelly Deutsch
And he himself was struggling with addiction. And so he talked to his bishop and said, like, I'd like to take some time in a treatment center to like, I just I need to figure this out. And the bishop was very gracious about it. But after his time at the treatment center, he's like, I still need some time. I'm going to take another year sabbatical to figure out what's going on.
00;06;27;25 - 00;06;50;04
Kelly Deutsch
And the bishop was like, all right, well, then you need to figure out a way to provide for yourself. And, you know, we can see where this goes. And so for the first time ever, Bill had to figure out how to get a job interview, rent an apartment, find furniture, like he had never done that. It was like high school, minor seminary, major seminary priest, like surprise.
00;06;51;27 - 00;07;16;15
Kelly Deutsch
But the thing that I one of the things that was really difficult for him, among others, was really just others expectations and disappointments, particularly his family. And I have another priest friend who who left the priesthood, and he's like, Kelly, you would have thunk that I had just announced the worst thing ever. You know, I was raised in an Irish Catholic family.
00;07;16;18 - 00;07;44;14
Kelly Deutsch
They were so proud to have a priest in their family. And so for me to leave you like it honestly, would have been easier for me to tell my staunch Catholic parents that I was gay. He's like, I'm not. But that would have been an easier announcement for them than I'm leaving the priesthood. And as I was talking with with my friend Bill, it was so interesting because I think just like you were saying there, with that idea of a scapegoat.
00;07;44;19 - 00;08;04;01
Kelly Deutsch
This is very Jungian, like how we just cast not only our shadows on people, but we also cast our light or, you know, some people call it the positive shadow. And so we want our heroes or gurus, these models that we hold up for ourselves to hold all the positive things about us, you know, the things that we don't really think we're capable of.
00;08;04;05 - 00;08;28;12
Kelly Deutsch
And so we have to cast them on someone else. So when they fall they get so upset because they're like, You were supposed to hold the dream alive for me like you. That was your responsibility. Instead of recognizing like, Oh, maybe I can be prayerful and care about every person that comes in contact with me, you know, and all the things that we think pastors or spiritual teachers or whoever are.
00;08;28;16 - 00;08;55;03
Kelly Deutsch
And instead we put this huge burden on these very human persons. And I mean, I'm sure it's true in Protestant churches as well, but man within the Catholic Church, like priests and nuns, you know, other Catholics are just like, Oh, father, oh, sister. And they just have such reverence for them which, hey, that's lovely. But also forget how, how human they can be as well.
00;08;57;04 - 00;09;26;00
Kelly Deutsch
There's another friend of mine who and lots of friends who became priests or nuns. And, you know, within that percentage that also left so I've another friend who was in a convent left, had a really difficult experience. Not great. There's some toxicity there where and that's oh my gosh, we could do a whole nother podcast on that, how we spiritualized our emotional toxicity like, oh, in Catholic world, we just say, offer it up, you know, like this is your sacrifice.
00;09;26;00 - 00;09;40;12
Kelly Deutsch
Offered up to Jesus, just like we have no, not toxic behavior that's not going to do it. That she was sharing with me how she had been circles that I run and she had dinner the other night with an exorcist.
00;09;41;28 - 00;09;42;12
Amy Piatt
As one.
00;09;42;12 - 00;10;09;05
Kelly Deutsch
Does. Right. Right. And he was saying some of the most insidious things that he had ever seen in his work as an exorcist were in convents with nuns. And he's like so many people have such a hard time believing that because they can see like, oh, okay, those those priests and all those sex scandals and, you know, the shocking ness of that but he's like, people don't want to believe that women are capable of that, too.
00;10;09;25 - 00;10;52;15
Amy Piatt
Oh, yeah. Oh, they are. We are anybody who has this flesh suit is capable of it. And it's so interesting listening to you talk. I'm just thinking about like, the ways in which, first of all, I resent when people do this to me, but then I do it to others. And like, I've sort of developed a habit in my adult life of saying, guess I am a pastor, because inevitably it comes up when you meet someone, like, what do you do And for a while, like when I lived in Portland, I was so worried about how I'd be received.
00;10;52;15 - 00;11;15;14
Amy Piatt
I would say, I work at a nonprofit and just let it fly. You know, don't don't trust this but I've kind of gotten past that and I say I'm a minister, but probably not what you think of what do you think of a minister? I also yell at my kids I cuss, I screw up a lot and I'm kind of an asshole.
00;11;16;11 - 00;11;36;18
Amy Piatt
I really do. I say that not I read the room like you're not going to land. Well, usually I'm pretty good on first meetings, you know, whether or not that would just be something that would be a game changer for them or not. Sometimes maybe I should say it anyway, but it's my way of saying we don't. Don't do this to me, you know?
00;11;37;08 - 00;11;56;28
Amy Piatt
And if you can relate to this and even find humor in it, you and I are probably going to get along. And then we don't have to have this weird distance and this weird, like, fake getting along thing we do for a long time before we let down our guard and actually get to the meat of human relationship if if ever at all, you know?
00;11;57;17 - 00;12;13;11
Amy Piatt
And I want to I won't let you down at least in the same way. I will probably hurt you at some point or offend you because that's what we do. But I don't want to. I don't mean to, but maybe it won't be like crucify her. You know, she said to me, you know, we don't need to do that either.
00;12;13;11 - 00;12;33;17
Amy Piatt
We don't need to run someone off the cliffs. We go to these extremes I don't know. There's like the Madonna whore complex. It's like a I don't know what like the relationship version of that would be. Like you just the the Christ scapegoat complex, I guess. I don't know. I'm Mhm.
00;12;33;29 - 00;13;13;12
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. And it's interesting as, as you shared that the what stuck out to me was the distance that happens when people do that, you know, instead of us being peers and fellow humans, that we're all just trying to figure this out together. Like nobody has all of life's answers figured out. No guru, no priest, no theologian, philosopher, whoever, no saint, but to place all of our ideals in one person or, you know, at least a handful of people does put such a distance between us that we can no longer be peers and fellow humans and that's why it's sad.
00;13;13;12 - 00;13;28;22
Kelly Deutsch
I mean, both for me, if I'm the one projecting it and also for you, because all of a sudden you lose that ability to be the same, lose the ability to be human. It's not like you absolutely lose it, but at least in my eyes.
00;13;30;11 - 00;13;53;28
Amy Piatt
Yep. Yep. Well, yeah. And so there's less risk there, right? Like you can't hurt me. You can only you can only have this much access to me. But then there's also no richness in our relationships. So it's like the degree to which we're willing to be exposed and just open ourselves up. Imperfections and all is also like the room we have our dance floor.
00;13;53;29 - 00;14;12;03
Amy Piatt
It's a lot bigger, right? And it's not always going to be a beautiful dance. Sometimes I'm going to trip and actually step on your toes and sometimes I'm just going to want to, like, do like, I don't know, what's the one? Are you going to the stick? Limbo silliness. I just want to be study doesn't have to be beautiful, does not have to be ballroom or ballet.
00;14;12;03 - 00;14;39;23
Amy Piatt
But like sometimes it's really worth it. It's really worth it to just stay open. And I think when I talk about people being hungry, this is where the conversation usually turns out. Yeah. And you bet. But how do you do that? It's all well and good to talk about it, but how do you actually stay open? What does that look like?
00;14;41;25 - 00;15;01;20
Amy Piatt
And so I just want to say, for those of you listening, this is what we want to explore if anything today. We just want to give you sort of a general overview of some of the things that we'll continue to dove into in these conversations and the things that we're still learning we have not perfected. We're not experts.
00;15;02;21 - 00;15;26;06
Amy Piatt
I don't think I ever will be. But through sitting with my pain story, telling and having people in my life who are willing to witness those things and like reflect a little back to me, actually rather uncomplicated. I'm not going to say it's easy. It is not. But it's so worth it. And it's quite simple.
00;15;27;18 - 00;15;50;10
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. And there's something so rich in learning from each other and recognizing that we are all beginners. And in some sense, we are all wisdom teachers. You know, we all have life experience that we've learned from and from my years in the corporate world, when I do leadership development and training and things, I first of all, sometimes I'd go to like seminars and continue education things.
00;15;50;10 - 00;16;13;28
Kelly Deutsch
And I kind of was anywhere from annoyed to resentful when I went to a seminar and the presenter spoke as if they knew everything, you know, like they had the answer to every question instead of recognizing that they're very capable professionals in the room who probably have lots of experience, you know? And so just saying like, well, what do you all think?
00;16;14;09 - 00;16;34;27
Kelly Deutsch
And learning how powerful that can be, you know, if I was leading a training and somebody is like, Okay, so how do you deal with like this kind of difficult person in the workplace, you know, and then opening it up and saying, what experience do you guys have? And just validating that we all have valid experience and riches, treasures, wisdom to share.
00;16;35;11 - 00;16;44;02
Kelly Deutsch
And it it really evens out the playing field so that we become instead of gurus, we become more facilitators. Yes.
00;16;45;13 - 00;17;22;02
Amy Piatt
Yes. And I think when I talk about maybe a more feminine model of leadership, I think collaboration is something that just comes more naturally to us. Not always. It's not absolute and always true. But these stereotypes exist for a reason. Women know how to work together to get a thing done. We know how to communicate, we know how to like encourage each other to use those gifts, to see those gifts and bring them out.
00;17;22;25 - 00;17;36;16
Amy Piatt
We don't need someone to be at the top. We don't need someone to win. We don't need leadership does not have to be a pinnacle from what you're destined to fall. It's just the main example we have.
00;17;37;18 - 00;18;04;16
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, especially that model of leadership. Yeah. Because it certainly is helpful to have somebody where it's like, okay, there's some structure here and this is how we're going to make decisions, etc. But there is something very masculine about that executive. Like, I'm going to make an executive decision and this is what we're going to do. And sometimes that's necessary, you know, it's not like, it's not like feminine, good, masculine, bad.
00;18;04;26 - 00;18;27;25
Kelly Deutsch
It's simply that we need to make sure that both of those gifts are interwoven in how how we approach the world and not only in leadership, but in our daily lives. You know, what's that? And when we talk about mass killing energy, feminine energy, you know, it's more in that archetypal way. It's not like, yes, I need to somehow channel something.
00;18;27;25 - 00;18;53;19
Kelly Deutsch
I mean, use whatever language you're comfortable with. But that's one of the reasons why I like Carl Jung and his ideas of archetypes and things and the shadow work let's we're going to have somebody come on here and talk about shadow work. That stuff is happening. But to be able to integrate those that the light and the shadow of, of the feminine, of the masculine, all of those gifts so that we can be more balanced human beings.
00;18;55;13 - 00;19;23;15
Amy Piatt
Right. And maybe less inclined to hide and feel ashamed about them, but just to learn how to reconcile them, to kind of hold them lightly up next to things that we are good at, things that can be celebrated and actually maybe things that we thought before were shameful. And we can become with time gifts that can inform us, that can help other people heal.
00;19;24;29 - 00;19;59;13
Amy Piatt
That actually was a little tweaking our beautiful I mean, that's the story of 12 Step wisdom, right? And that addiction tells you to be ashamed and to hide it and to just keep being addicted. Right. That's the only way out is the only way through this. And that's how it thrives but the way 12 steps works is that you come together and in the shared wisdom, the shared story, you hear something of yourselves in my weakness, in my struggle and somehow you feel alone.
00;20;00;25 - 00;20;16;10
Amy Piatt
You feel more welcomed, more seen, and you find hope. There's like this miracle that takes place in those rooms where people are just being really honest about the ways they have totally messed up their lives. And it's counterintuitive, but it's real.
00;20;16;25 - 00;20;41;03
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah, so much. I mean, that's that reminds me of all of Bernie Brown's work on vulnerability. You know, the people, the person who is being vulnerable almost always feels like they are just revealing all of their weaknesses. Like, look how weak I am. Whereas everyone else in the room is like, oh, that person is so strong to be able to share that, you know, like what?
00;20;41;03 - 00;20;41;24
Kelly Deutsch
Courage.
00;20;43;10 - 00;21;05;17
Amy Piatt
Yes. Isn't that funny? On the perception? Yeah, it's all relative. Yeah. It does take courage. It does take courage to be seen. But it's also such a cat and yeah, to have that received in a way that is loving and reflecting. Back to you. Oh, my gosh. I mean, that's I want that for everyone.
00;21;05;26 - 00;21;20;19
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Who would you say if I asked you who are one or two people that you've met, whether you know them personally or you know by name? Who seem to embody both that masculine and feminine really? Well.
00;21;22;16 - 00;21;23;16
Amy Piatt
Oh, that's a great question.
00;21;28;08 - 00;21;41;28
Amy Piatt
Hmm. So the first person that comes to mind is probably my own mom. Hmm.
00;21;44;27 - 00;22;15;27
Amy Piatt
Yeah. My mother has never been much of a stereotype in the way of like traditional female roles. She's a little like five foot three now. She's great. I mean, that's where I get it. She used to be blond when I was a kid landlady. It was just like very overly confident, but just pretty strong. And who she was the oldest of five kids, and like, she kind of ran the show, and so she didn't date herself much.
00;22;15;27 - 00;22;39;00
Amy Piatt
And if she did, she didn't show it. Like, put a pin in that because the whole impostor syndrome thing is part of the whole narrative, I think that we have to work around. But I really I still see her as somebody who just has a natural sense of like assuredness and who she is. And it's not about her ego and like puffing herself up.
00;22;39;00 - 00;23;00;16
Amy Piatt
It's just like I'm comfortable in my own skin. And I growing up, I watched her, like, change her own tires and my own. And she was a single mom. A little background. You notice about me, Kelly, but people listening well, and I share this with my father's permission, he he got into recovery from alcoholism when I was 13.
00;23;00;16 - 00;23;39;12
Amy Piatt
So that was why they split when I was four. His drinking just started like tail spinning. That's a whole other show. But my mom had to figure this stuff out for herself and you know, she in the workplace, she worked with all men, but she was their boss that she was smaller than any of them. But also, like, incredibly maternal in the ways that, like, she was very affectionate and loving to my brother and I and like taught me how to cook.
00;23;39;12 - 00;24;02;13
Amy Piatt
And she would sing to me and play guitar and yes, she's a storyteller, so she's a good balance. When I think about like male and female qualities, my own mother for me is like pretty key in that area. How about you?
00;24;03;25 - 00;24;59;05
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, so at that moment, ironically, the two people that are coming to mind are both priests. Which is funny because I think you'll find many, many celibate, you know, priests or religious who are not very full bodied but these two that I'm thinking of, one was my spiritual director as my life was falling apart. And yeah, Father Mark had a really great way of he had his, his masculine presence, you know, where he just felt like full statured human being, but also had a profound gentleness and that sense of receptivity that was exactly what I needed, you know, as I was falling apart.
00;24;59;14 - 00;25;25;26
Kelly Deutsch
And, you know, I really think came through his own personal crisis and how he learned and I think that's how a lot of this works. You know, that's crisis serves as our own kind of haphazard initiation, if you will. And if you look into I think raw talks about that, some like if you don't have some sort of official initiation where it's like, okay, you are now you will go through this official crisis of some sort.
00;25;25;26 - 00;25;28;02
Kelly Deutsch
You know, you have to do this really hard thing and you're going to be.
00;25;28;03 - 00;25;30;12
Amy Piatt
Rites of passage. Yeah.
00;25;31;27 - 00;26;03;14
Kelly Deutsch
If you don't have something official, you're going to like. Life is going to give you something unofficial that's going to wake you up to how crazy reality is. But but once you've been through some sort of crisis and not everyone, it's not like every crisis leads to a wise person, I honestly don't know what makes the difference. What why one suffering will lead somebody else, one person to become bitter and try another suffering, only another person to become a saint.
00;26;04;26 - 00;26;34;24
Kelly Deutsch
I don't know. That's a mystery to me. But there is something really profound about those who find a deeper wisdom and a deeper sense of grounding are then often, I don't know, almost initiated to be able to help others who are going through that and have a different way of seeing it instead of maybe the more traditionally masculine, like, Oh, I got to fix you, I got to help you, you know, which I'm sure both of us have gone through.
00;26;34;24 - 00;26;47;10
Kelly Deutsch
At least I know I did with illness, like people who just want to fix and solve. It's like I, I appreciate that you would like to help me, but what makes you so uncomfortable with this?
00;26;48;00 - 00;27;15;08
Amy Piatt
Yeah. Yes, that is such a huge challenge for I mean, anybody in a helping profession, like, we're supposed to want to help, right? We're supposed to be able to fix. We're supposed to know what to do. And I would sort of put that in the camp of feminine characteristics. Um, because it's part of nurturing, and I don't want to fault too much.
00;27;15;08 - 00;27;43;22
Amy Piatt
I really isn't necessarily my mother. Like, those were pretty stereotypical male female definitions, but growing up, that was my first formative experience. But like just bearing with someone witnessing their life and allowing our hearts to be broken by the things that break their hearts yeah. Sometimes that's the best we can do. And that's, that's not nothing is huge.
00;27;44;12 - 00;27;56;04
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. So let me backtrack. How would you define what you would consider, like, these masculine and feminine archetypes? What words do you associate with each?
00;27;56;09 - 00;28;38;11
Amy Piatt
Yeah. Okay. So feminine would be receptivity. Subtlety softness. Mm hmm. Um, life bearing, right? Life comes through the feminine and masculine would be I immediately went to the negative, and I didn't want to do that because I don't I don't usually think of it in those terms. But for some reason, today, that's where I went. Masculine would be provisional.
00;28;38;25 - 00;28;51;16
Amy Piatt
It would be courageous. It would be what's the word like when you want to start things?
00;28;51;29 - 00;28;53;04
Kelly Deutsch
Oh, initiative.
00;28;53;13 - 00;29;22;15
Amy Piatt
Thank you. That's my daughter on the fridge leaving the door open. Sorry, Yes, yes. They initiate. Um hmm. So life. Life starting, which is actually, you know, if you think of the woman's body as that which bears life, you need a man's body, the mechanics of it, to help give life to initiate it. Yeah. Hmm. No, no. Great question.
00;29;22;15 - 00;29;25;16
Amy Piatt
I don't. I hadn't thought it through ahead of time, but that's what comes to mind. How about you?
00;29;25;25 - 00;29;58;27
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. Yeah. As you were sharing that, I I haven't thought this through entirely, but it aligns for me, perhaps with the difference between head and heart. You know, again, speaking these archetypal ways, not just in no way am I saying like, oh, all women are receptive and vulnerable. And, like, forgiving, and all men are provisional like that. So very little to do with, like, everyday human beings on the street.
00;29;58;27 - 00;30;15;07
Kelly Deutsch
But there is something to those images and stories that we give over millennia throughout human history. So thinking of that heart space is much more present and.
00;30;15;17 - 00;30;16;09
Amy Piatt
Supple.
00;30;17;07 - 00;30;27;15
Kelly Deutsch
And the word expansive comes to mind. But that can also be a very masculine thing as well.
00;30;30;15 - 00;31;02;02
Kelly Deutsch
Head does have more of that analytical problem-solving taking the initiative which is why it's so important for us to have both because we have to live with both head and heart. Or you could even call that left and right brain. Left brain tends to be the much more analytical straightforward. Let me be efficient. Right brained is the relational okay with mystery, creative kind of energy and you have to use both sides of your brain on all occasions.
00;31;02;02 - 00;31;03;24
Kelly Deutsch
Like we can't just use half of it.
00;31;06;00 - 00;31;47;01
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah. And I love both of those. Like, I love the way that both of those kinds of energies, if you will, feel in my body, you know, when I'm just in slow and I'm creating, but I'm also achieving and I'm just like, yeah, I want to go conquer the world you now. And you just have that kind of expansive energy that makes you lie about but I find especially in spiritual direction or coaching or any of those scenarios where you'd need to listen deeply, that's a much more feminine stance, you know, I'm just receiving people into that hollowed out interior, you know, and oftentimes it's suffering that hollows out but because of that, we have a
00;31;47;24 - 00;31;57;04
Kelly Deutsch
much more spacious place to receive others and be present with them in pain, struggle joy. Life.
00;31;58;05 - 00;32;16;18
Amy Piatt
Yeah, life. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking like the people who I lean on for spiritual direction, guidance, wisdom are people who seem pretty integrated in these.
00;32;16;19 - 00;32;16;28
Kelly Deutsch
Two.
00;32;21;17 - 00;32;48;08
Amy Piatt
I don't know, human experiences that they have learned to hold them, not intentions so much, but like lightly and to pull from both and to allow both expressions and not to suppress that was another word that I was thinking when you were talking about how some people are surprised by nuns having the same issues that everyone else has.
00;32;48;08 - 00;33;17;14
Amy Piatt
Well, I think it's no surprise that any situation that would ask us to suppress the part of who we are would cause some people who aren't allowed to integrate in some form. Right. If they're not given some expression of integration, that suppressed human experience is going to come out sideways in the form of pain, and it is going to hurt others because hurt people, hurt people.
00;33;17;15 - 00;33;52;26
Amy Piatt
Right. And cause more suffering. And so we need tools to integrate. We need examples of integration. We need a path for it. And so like the wise people, another example I would give is my spiritual direction, Don. It's funny, because his name could be Don, which it is, or D.W. in, but like like the morning Don 78 or man who is the most integrated man in the way of like totally embracing his feminine side it's hard to articulate, but he has like a mother's heart.
00;33;54;03 - 00;34;16;09
Amy Piatt
You will cry with me. He is so intuitive, intuitive, there's a good word I've had so many times when Don has called or texted me and he just knows that I need to hear from him and he'll say, I'm praying for you. Call when you have time or Hey, you came up in my prayers today, so I'm calling you what's going on?
00;34;16;09 - 00;34;27;24
Amy Piatt
And it's like, how did you know? Yeah, yeah. So he's very receptive. Be straight open. Yeah, yeah. That would be another good example in my adult life, yeah.
00;34;28;02 - 00;34;54;22
Kelly Deutsch
Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. And it is, like you said, I think we need to have these opportunities as well as models for integration and that was always such a huge question that I had while I was in the convent. I was in formation with these sisters, and I remember asking even before I entered the convent, asking these other sisters since that's what I plan to do with my life and asking so many religious like, what do you do with your sexuality?
00;34;55;06 - 00;34;57;00
Kelly Deutsch
You know, like how do you live that? Like, what do.
00;34;57;00 - 00;34;57;16
Amy Piatt
You.
00;34;58;06 - 00;35;18;14
Kelly Deutsch
You know? And so many really, because of the formation that they'd been given, would just be like, oh, well, you just, you know, kind of sublimate your desires and offered up to God. But like, when you I know when you press someone, I'm like to ask them, what what does that even mean? You know, I'm like, well, you know, I'll just know.
00;35;18;14 - 00;35;19;01
Amy Piatt
I don't know.
00;35;19;02 - 00;35;53;06
Kelly Deutsch
You'll figure it out. I'm like, no, you can't just use theological terms, like, just sublimate your desires. Like, you have to tell me how to do that. You know, you have to explain what this looks like and how on a practical level, that's one of the reasons why I was so thankful for my spiritual director who was very like integrated both with the masculine feminine as well as with sexuality, you know, to have some insight into like he was Australian is like, Kelly, what do you do on an evening when, you know, you just want to sleep with a man?
00;35;53;15 - 00;35;54;03
Amy Piatt
You know.
00;35;54;03 - 00;36;00;09
Kelly Deutsch
I was like, oh, you tell me. I don't know what to do with that.
00;36;01;11 - 00;36;03;08
Amy Piatt
I'm glad you. Yeah, yeah.
00;36;03;15 - 00;36;13;24
Kelly Deutsch
So wonderful just to have very human conversations like that because it's true. If you repress, it does come out the side and it's not going to be in a healthy way almost ever.
00;36;15;09 - 00;36;15;16
Amy Piatt
By any.
00;36;15;18 - 00;36;15;26
Kelly Deutsch
Kind of it.
00;36;15;26 - 00;36;44;28
Amy Piatt
Comes full circle. Yeah. I'm thinking about this piece that we started with about a need to hold people up okay. So in Tough Stop, you, you find a sponsor, they really encourage that. And they say to look for someone who has something of what you want. They have what you want. Okay. So how is that different from holding someone above you?
00;36;44;28 - 00;37;10;20
Amy Piatt
Right. And making them like a guru or an expert? I think it's so much more honest to say, no, this person just is a little further down the road on this path, and they're probably still going to take some long turns, they're still going to trip up, but it gives like a whole new permission. And your vocabulary for that relationship, it's so much more grounded in reality.
00;37;11;02 - 00;37;13;11
Amy Piatt
Yes, we're going to do this together.
00;37;14;18 - 00;37;36;04
Kelly Deutsch
I remember it was a very important turning point for me and spiritual direction with this priest, Father Mark, when I had when it finally clicked in his humanity, because it is so easy, especially when you're starting to just grapple with these big questions and you feel kind of uncertain. You know, you just want someone who is like, okay, I can put wholehearted trust in you.
00;37;36;04 - 00;37;57;04
Kelly Deutsch
You've been down this road and just entrust myself to you. And it was a really important turning point when, I don't know, within a few months, there were a few things that just either his insight or advice or something just felt really off where he would say like, Oh, well, you know, you might consider X, Y, Z, and how does that sit with you?
00;37;57;04 - 00;37;59;25
Kelly Deutsch
And I'm like, terribly like.
00;38;00;08 - 00;38;00;23
Amy Piatt
Doesn't.
00;38;01;19 - 00;38;02;09
Kelly Deutsch
Know that doesn't.
00;38;03;15 - 00;38;03;20
Amy Piatt
I.
00;38;03;20 - 00;38;27;18
Kelly Deutsch
Don't think you understood even what I'm saying. But to have those experiences was really important for my insights to be like Kelly, he's human to like he has certainly he's a few more steps down the road, but he doesn't have all the answers. And that was important for me to recognize because I didn't even realize I was doing that, projecting in my spiritual direction relationship, you know, it was just.
00;38;29;22 - 00;38;30;20
Amy Piatt
So easy.
00;38;30;25 - 00;39;02;00
Kelly Deutsch
Trusting myself to him and I think that's fine and good for some stages of our growth. I think that can be important when we're feeling like we're floundering and like, is there someone who understands this? Because, sure, he had certainly more wisdom and knowledge and experience than I did. And I still love to find spiritual directors coaches and therapists who who have that similar quality like, yes, I want someone I want a sponsor who's two steps ahead of me.
00;39;02;15 - 00;39;02;27
Amy Piatt
Yeah.
00;39;04;02 - 00;39;13;13
Kelly Deutsch
But yeah, it is easy to place then our trust or project all of our ideals and hopes in that person.
00;39;14;01 - 00;39;29;28
Amy Piatt
Mm hmm. I guess the thing one of the other things, not that I think one of the other things I love about toss up is that once you get topped up, go back to number one that you're never done I go back to saying I'm powerless.